‘Wink’ is the New Defensive Coordinator

[29BmoreBird22]

I like Pagano but we had quite a defensive roster that year. Probably the best front seven in franchise history. Webb looked damn near Revis level. Jimmy Smith was young and promising. Cary Williams was actually used correctly and ordered to press. Reed was Reed.

Fact of the matter is that defense had four HOF level players in Ray, Reed, Suggs, and Ngata; several Pro Bowl level players like Webb and Arthur Jones; and key role players like Pernell McPhee. Again, Pagano's great, but that was very well the most talented Ravens defense, player for player, that we've probably ever seen. I don't think we're quite back at that talent level, and I'm not sure that magic can be replicated with the current cast of characters.

To be fair to Pagano, I think he was incredibly instrumental in the development of Webb, Jimmy, and Cary that year and he did coach Suggs to arguably the best year of his career.

 

[mc_red23]

I like Pagano but we had quite a defensive roster that year. Probably the best front seven in franchise history. Webb looked damn near Revis level. Jimmy Smith was young and promising. Cary Williams was actually used correctly and ordered to press. Reed was Reed.

Fact of the matter is that defense had four HOF level players in Ray, Reed, Suggs, and Ngata; several Pro Bowl level players like Webb and Arthur Jones; and key role players like Pernell McPhee. Again, Pagano's great, but that was very well the most talented Ravens defense, player for player, that we've probably ever seen. I don't think we're quite back at that talent level, and I'm not sure that magic can be replicated with the current cast of characters.

I was actually going to ask about how the two defenses compare based on the individuals and whether the performance levels can be replicated with the group we have at the moment. I know the obvious things about Ed Reed, Ray Lewis, Suggs being younger etc. but it's the finer details that I didn't know about and can't remember much about. 2011 was the first year I started watching the Ravens and despite me thoroughly enjoying what I saw, I had no clue about what was going on half the time lol.

Like someone else said, he doesn't have a ton of history to refer to, but the simple fact that they want to promote an in house candidate coupled with the fact that they never fired Pees suggests that Martindale would be the sort of guy who would maintain the status quo.
I write this because Pees voluntary departure makes me think they never saw a real problem with his methods and an in house hire looks like they want his heir.
I vaguely remember statements that Marty's playbook wouldn't be drastically different from Marc Trestman's and so the players wouldnt have too big of an adjustment etc etc...
That's what a Martindale hire means to me.

I can see why they would operate in this way if they didn't have an issue with what was happening but the fact that they don't/didn't have an issue with it slightly worries me. For these co-ordinators to have a chance of doing their job properly the FO has to do theirs first though. I'm not sure whether it's the case or not but to me it seems like there's not much cohesion between co-ordinators, head coach and then the FO when it comes to drafting at times. We're drafting players that are just never going to get utilised properly with the current co-ordinators.

 

[Oldfaithful]

Pagano would be great tbh. I'm hyped to see what he'd do with the secondary here and hopefully he'd use Bowser correctly.

Pagano was smart. I'd take him back with open arms. My second choice behind Fangio but a good one.

 

[Oldfaithful]

@The Raven please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure McPhee was used in limited capacity that season and that Art Jones wasnt really great until 2012. It was Redding who was the DE. That season I am pretty sure that Terrence Cody was the starting NT and he was decent for us that season. Jarret Johnson was also a key starter and provided nothing in the pass rush, Ray was only going off of name recognition at that point and was clearly on an obvious decline. Suggs had the best season of his career that season and Ngata was a stud himself who could single handedly shut down the run game. Webb was good, but Revis level was a massive exaggeration even if he should've made the pro bowl that season. Pollard was an enforcer(which is why I am really excited to see what he could do with Jefferson). Cary Williams was solid but I'd argue that both Humphrey and Tavon are better than he was that season.

2011 was the last great defense we had and had a lot of star talent but this defense has a ton of depth across the board. It'll be really interesting to see how we utilize the pass rushers we have under Pagano IF he is hired, but I'm all for it. That'd be the perfect start to the offseason.

 

[rossihunter2]

I like Pagano but we had quite a defensive roster that year. Probably the best front seven in franchise history. Webb looked damn near Revis level. Jimmy Smith was young and promising. Cary Williams was actually used correctly and ordered to press. Reed was Reed.

Fact of the matter is that defense had four HOF level players in Ray, Reed, Suggs, and Ngata; several Pro Bowl level players like Webb and Arthur Jones; and key role players like Pernell McPhee. Again, Pagano's great, but that was very well the most talented Ravens defense, player for player, that we've probably ever seen. I don't think we're quite back at that talent level, and I'm not sure that magic can be replicated with the current cast of characters.

On the other hand, Pagano got more out of Cary Williams and Chris Carr than anybody probably could have, so, maybe he could make magic happen again.

i think its only fair to recognise also that he took those talents and elevated them as a unit too - that was the year sizzle won DPOY and pagano melded all of the different elements of that defence together to create an unbelievable unit - you can handicap him by saying he had the best possible position to succeed but there's succeeding and then there's fielding a unit that's a franchise top 2/3 unit of all time - it's not like reed and ray and sizzle and haloti werent playing together for multiple years before then too (and after)... so its fair to question how he'd do with less talent but i think if we make that argument we also have to give him props for taking all those elements and creating something rarified

 

[Oldfaithful]

i think its only fair to recognise also that he took those talents and elevated them as a unit too - that was the year sizzle won DPOY and pagano melded all of the different elements of that defence together to create an unbelievable unit - you can handicap him by saying he had the best possible position to succeed but there's succeeding and then there's fielding a unit that's a franchise top 2/3 unit of all time - it's not like reed and ray and sizzle and haloti werent playing together for multiple years before then too (and after)... so its fair to question how he'd do with less talent but i think if we make that argument we also have to give him props for taking all those elements and creating something rarified

Not to mention the defense the year before was a lot like the defense we've been fielding since Pees got here. Good, but had lapses and whatnot. And it was fundamentally the same roster in 2011. We added rookie Jimmy Smith, who honestly didn't do much that year, McPhee was good in a limited role, and Bernard Pollard was added to the squad that year too...

Hell, Paul Kruger emerged as a good situational rusher after two years of NOTHING that season.

Pagano is a good hire. I want to see what he can do with the two young pass rushers and the secondary.

 

[redrum52]

@The Raven please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure McPhee was used in limited capacity that season and that Art Jones wasnt really great until 2012. It was Redding who was the DE. That season I am pretty sure that Terrence Cody was the starting NT and he was decent for us that season. Jarret Johnson was also a key starter and provided nothing in the pass rush, Ray was only going off of name recognition at that point and was clearly on an obvious decline. Suggs had the best season of his career that season and Ngata was a stud himself who could single handedly shut down the run game. Webb was good, but Revis level was a massive exaggeration even if he should've made the pro bowl that season. Pollard was an enforcer(which is why I am really excited to see what he could do with Jefferson). Cary Williams was solid but I'd argue that both Humphrey and Tavon are better than he was that season.

2011 was the last great defense we had and had a lot of star talent but this defense has a ton of depth across the board. It'll be really interesting to see how we utilize the pass rushers we have under Pagano IF he is hired, but I'm all for it. That'd be the perfect start to the offseason.

That last part is so goddam true. He didn't care who you were. If you could get pressure you were playing and he had no problems letting young guys shine.

 

[redrum52]

It would be hilarious by the way if ZDS looked like Von Miller under a new DC

 

[rossihunter2]

It would be hilarious by the way if ZDS looked like Von Miller under a new DC

ZDS is physically incapable of bending the edge or moving laterally or beating a player with speed - less than 0% chance of this happening

i can see him becoming a better inside rusher but outside = nope has zero traits that even remotely resemble von miller

hypothetically even if he was as good as von miller he would still look nothing like von miller because their traits would be so vastly different but now im just getting really nitpicky lol

 

[redrum52]

ZDS is physically incapable of bending the edge or moving laterally or beating a player with speed - less than 0% chance of this happening

i can see him becoming a better inside rusher but outside = nope has zero traits that even remotely resemble von miller

hypothetically even if he was as good as von miller he would still look nothing like von miller because their traits would be so vastly different

Trust me. I don't believe one bit of what I typed will ever happen. I don't see him even playing at Judon's level, but we do have some people I think we see a drastic improvement in.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

I like Pagano but we had quite a defensive roster that year. Probably the best front seven in franchise history. Webb looked damn near Revis level. Jimmy Smith was young and promising. Cary Williams was actually used correctly and ordered to press. Reed was Reed.

Fact of the matter is that defense had four HOF level players in Ray, Reed, Suggs, and Ngata; several Pro Bowl level players like Webb and Arthur Jones; and key role players like Pernell McPhee. Again, Pagano's great, but that was very well the most talented Ravens defense, player for player, that we've probably ever seen. I don't think we're quite back at that talent level, and I'm not sure that magic can be replicated with the current cast of characters.

On the other hand, Pagano got more out of Cary Williams and Chris Carr than anybody probably could have, so, maybe he could make magic happen again.

We had 2 seasons of late game defensive meltdowns prior to pagano with Greg mattison, we had 6 seasons of late game meltdowns following pagano with pees.

You know what we didn't have much of in 2011? Fourth quarter meltdowns. And you're vastly exaggerating the talents in that unit. Sizzle was by far the best, Webb was very good that year, jimmy was alright but very prone to big plays, McPhee was a rookie and everyone else was a middling talent aside from ed and ray who were clearly not in their best years at that point.

 

[rossihunter2]

Trust me. I don't believe one bit of what I typed will ever happen. I don't see him even playing at Judon's level, but we do have some people I think we see a drastic improvement in.

i hope so because im tired of 4th quarter blown leads because of lack of outside pass rush threat and other things - its not that i didnt like a lot of the stuff on defence but i want a fresh take/new voice coming into the building on defence that hasnt been part of the pees defensive system so that they can come in objectively and with no preconceived ideas about individual players

 

[balfan23]

All of this discussion ... and Wink is the odds on favorite. Fans can't dictate what a staff should do ... as the saying goes, if a coach listens to the fans, he'll soon be joining them in the stands.

But I refuse to believe that going the way of Pagano would be a mistake, over promoting Wink. In the end - for Harbs ... no more favors for friends ... no being nice to guys already on staff because you like them or the players like them. This is the end of the line ... so you better get the guy in here who will mold these players into performers.

Of course, that's all incumbent on Pagano wanting to take the job ... which I hope he does and I hope we get him in here.

 

[allblackraven]

We had 2 seasons of late game defensive meltdowns prior to pagano with Greg mattison, we had 6 seasons of late game meltdowns following pagano with pees.

You know what we didn't have much of in 2011? Fourth quarter meltdowns. And you're vastly exaggerating the talents in that unit. Sizzle was by far the best, Webb was very good that year, jimmy was alright but very prone to big plays, McPhee was a rookie and everyone else was a middling talent aside from ed and ray who were clearly not in their best years at that point.

Ngata was arguably half of that defense

 

[RayRayRaven]

if a coach listens to the fans, he'll soon be joining them in the stands.

But I refuse to believe that going the way of Pagano would be a mistake, over promoting Wink. In the end - for Harbs ... no more favors for friends ... no being nice to guys already on staff because you like them or the players like them. This is the end of the line ... so you better get the guy in here who will mold these players into performers.

Of course, that's all incumbent on Pagano wanting to take the job ... which I hope he does and I hope we get him in here.

Well, if Harball isn't gone before camp 2018, it ain't ever leaving as long as Bisciotti is the owner period.

Pagano is not well. He doesn't need this anymore and we don't need to wear out his last thread.

 

[Oldfaithful]

Ngata was arguably half of that defense

Ngata was half of that defense. He singlehandedly could take even the best running backs in the league out of the game and force a ton of third and longs... And then he'd pressure the QB and kick his ass for good measure.

I miss him. Dlinemen like him just don't come around that often.

 

[Oldfaithful]

I'd honestly say that even with the collapse down the stretch.. This was easily our best defense since 2011.. There's a ton of talent here. We don't have the elite megastuds like an in his prime Suggs and Ngata anymore.. But there's a lot of pieces here that Pagano would love. I mean.

Brandon Williams is valuable as a run stuffer... Mad we overpaid him(we should have picked Jernigan and I told y'all so), but he's an asset. Helps force a lot of third and longs.

CJ Mosley even with the down year is one of the better ILBs in the game.

Suggs is still good and I think he's got another good season in him.

Eric Weddle is still a good player who will likely bounce back.

Tony Jefferson may have been underwhelming, but he's a better player than Pollard was in 2011 and I would LOVE to see what Pagano does with him because he utilized Pollard well

Marlon and Tavon are super promising. Please stay healthy.

Matt Judon is a rock solid player. His stats were inflated, but he's a good rotational LB.

There are unknowns here. But I feel as if one of Bowser and Williams would do more than pan out under Pagano.. IF not both.

I also feel as if Pagano would be able to draw a few players here both due to Colts players and because of his previous tenure here being successful. Paul Pousluzny anyone? Vontae Davis(well aware of his struggles over the past season or two. He wouldn't be too expensive coming off of injury and it could work as a low risk high reward thing ). Darius Butler? Jack Mewhort? Donte Moncrief?

This would be good in several ways. Could save Harbaugh's ass tbh.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Ngata was arguably half of that defense

True, dunno why I left him out because he was on a DPOY pace for multiple years at that point. He and sizzle were huge for sure, that was a very talented defense but with him saying things like "revis-like" I had to slow that down lol. Pagano got a head coaching offer for a reason, ONE year as a D.C. And he got an offer, the players and organization loved him, he called a successful game plan and made the best use of his talent.

I hope like hell we get him, because I wanna see bowser and williams shine. Under Rex and pagano rookies used to step in and shine all the time, now suddenly it seems we can't ever see anything from a rookie unless they're a goddamn day3/udfa db and they only see the field because of injuries anyway.

 

[The Raven]

To be fair to Pagano, I think he was incredibly instrumental in the development of Webb, Jimmy, and Cary that year and he did coach Suggs to arguably the best year of his career.

Not trying to be a contrarian but I seem to remember Ted Monachino, the position coach, getting the credit for Suggs's performance. I'll definitely grant you that Webb and Jimmy would not be where they are without Pees, and Cary regressed badly after Pagano.

Pagano was near exclusively press man, wasn't he? I seem to remember a lot of press that year. Was there much zone at all?

@The Raven please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure McPhee was used in limited capacity that season and that Art Jones wasnt really great until 2012. It was Redding who was the DE. That season I am pretty sure that Terrence Cody was the starting NT and he was decent for us that season. Jarret Johnson was also a key starter and provided nothing in the pass rush, Ray was only going off of name recognition at that point and was clearly on an obvious decline. Suggs had the best season of his career that season and Ngata was a stud himself who could single handedly shut down the run game. Webb was good, but Revis level was a massive exaggeration even if he should've made the pro bowl that season. Pollard was an enforcer(which is why I am really excited to see what he could do with Jefferson). Cary Williams was solid but I'd argue that both Humphrey and Tavon are better than he was that season.

2011 was the last great defense we had and had a lot of star talent but this defense has a ton of depth across the board. It'll be really interesting to see how we utilize the pass rushers we have under Pagano IF he is hired, but I'm all for it. That'd be the perfect start to the offseason.

Idk. I'm not going to dissect each player but...

You're wrong about McPhee. He had six sacks under Pagano in 2011, his second highest total in Baltimore.

Webb had five picks and started every game that year. Maybe Revis is an exaggeration but Webb was in the top five CB discussion at that time.

I'll agree that Humphrey and Tavon are better than Cary (and Chris Carr).

i think its only fair to recognise also that he took those talents and elevated them as a unit too - that was the year sizzle won DPOY and pagano melded all of the different elements of that defence together to create an unbelievable unit - you can handicap him by saying he had the best possible position to succeed but there's succeeding and then there's fielding a unit that's a franchise top 2/3 unit of all time - it's not like reed and ray and sizzle and haloti werent playing together for multiple years before then too (and after)... so its fair to question how he'd do with less talent but i think if we make that argument we also have to give him props for taking all those elements and creating something rarified

I have given Pagano credit for this. He showed a rare knack that year for understanding all three levels of a defense and using each to complement the others. Despite having a background in the secondary, Pagano's dline philosophy is the best we've ever had, including Rex. Pagano's single gap, penetrating DL play enabled McPhee, Ngata, and Redding to dominate. He also was a master of stunts and loops.

We had 2 seasons of late game defensive meltdowns prior to pagano with Greg mattison, we had 6 seasons of late game meltdowns following pagano with pees.

You know what we didn't have much of in 2011? Fourth quarter meltdowns. And you're vastly exaggerating the talents in that unit. Sizzle was by far the best, Webb was very good that year, jimmy was alright but very prone to big plays, McPhee was a rookie and everyone else was a middling talent aside from ed and ray who were clearly not in their best years at that point.

I mean, we'll see. I just don't think we're at that talent level yet. We'll see what happens. Remember that McPhee had six sacks, Kruger had five, Ngata had five, and Redding had 4.5. All of this on top of Suggs's 14. That interior pass rush blew this year's out of the water. Is that because of Pagano? Possibly. His DL style embraces attack as opposed to Pees's love for containment. But we also had a freak DL that year and I think people underrate it a bit.

 

[Boldnpurpblack]

He was our D.C. For one season and that was sizzles DPOY season and the last time we had a truly dominant defense, and we fell short of the SB because of lee Evans and billy cuntsniff. There's no way you can hold anything against pagano as a potential D.C. Candidate

But I can evaluate the talent that was on that defense, the fact that it was one year, and how awful his defenses have been as a HC.

The '06-'10 defenses were also quite good, generally speaking, and he wasnt coordinating them.

I also wouldnt be against it... just indifferent. Not as excited as most seem. 1 good year as a DC is not a trend.