The Defense, the Turnovers, and the Redzone Offense

[rmcjacket23]

The strongest case to get Cleveland on the field isn't about his personal PFF score, it's about a unit that is discombobulated, they are playing even worse than their individual strengths. Guards are the most insulated players on the offense, when one of them single handedly implodes half a dozen plays with regularity it breaks down the confidence of the unit. It's the chemistry that isn't working, so you make a move to improve it.

It's against the Ravens team ethic to not try something different, look at how quickly they identified and made changes on the defense and ST units, but the OLine they just keep rolling out the same group that clearly doesn't work and is getting worse

Which should be giving the fanbase a pretty strong indication that they don't think any of the backups, at this stage, are upgrades.
I think the fanbase is going to have a hard time selling the idea that somehow we're married and stubborn to day 3 iOL, but yet we've literally in the last 12 months benched expensive veterans for cheap backups when we felt the depth was better.

I think there's a point in the near future where Emery Jones starts getting rotational snaps, but I think its blatantly that they don't view Cleveland as an upgrade over anybody starting currently. Guy has lost like three straight open competitions for a starting job AND 31 other NFL teams didn't think he was worth adding as depth for more than the vet minimum.

 

[Baltimorican]

Respectfully, I disagree. It's not your job to have a very high salary investment defense and shit the bed early in the year to put yourself behind the 8 ball every year. I'm glad things have looked better but dont forget you've literally been playing absolutely trash teams. When we were playing good teams, we were giving up 40+.

Not at all sure we can say the defense "is back". The things I think we can say are Malaki Starks and Alohi Gilman are playing more fundamentally sound S. And that Dremont Jones looks to be a slight upgrade on Oweh.

I apologize for being overly negative, but if you saw the game winning drive on defense vs Cleveland, we got lucky as fuck. Shedeur throw multiple in the dirt when his guy was open. Shedeur overthrew a guy open in the end zone. Sheduer actually threw a TD ball while Awuzie had his back 100% turned. We just got lucky that he played through the whistle on his rip of the receiver's hands and he dropped it.

I think they've been passing the eye test since the Rams game (Bears have also been a solid offense all year). Defense gave up 6 pts and <200 yds to lowly Browns and held the ST muff to a FG. When Beeks got hurt, they had the worst pass rush in Ravens history for about a month. That's not a guy you can replace mid season so reworking the rush by getting Gilman and Dre'mont and converting Hamilton into an almost full time blitzer is a HELL of an adjustment.

"Back" is a problematic word because we did lose our best lineman (by a mile) so we will never get back to top 3 defense we've had last couple years. But just to be a top 10 defense again is amazing IMO. As long as I got a top 10 defense and a healthy Lamar i'm taking every shot I can in the playoffs.

 

[Baltimorican]

Which should be giving the fanbase a pretty strong indication that they don't think any of the backups, at this stage, are upgrades.
I think the fanbase is going to have a hard time selling the idea that somehow we're married and stubborn to day 3 iOL, but yet we've literally in the last 12 months benched expensive veterans for cheap backups when we felt the depth was better.

I think there's a point in the near future where Emery Jones starts getting rotational snaps, but I think its blatantly that they don't view Cleveland as an upgrade over anybody starting currently. Guy has lost like three straight open competitions for a starting job AND 31 other NFL teams didn't think he was worth adding as depth for more than the vet minimum.

The Ravens fan base has been right before, especially when it's this unanimous. Not saying we are now, but it's not a given that Harbs is in the right on this one. There isn't a ravens fan out there buying the media take that Lamar needs to run more, we know the guards suck.

 

[29BmoreBird22]

Gotta remember we're talking about a team here that values chemistry. It's why they let Zeitler walk. It's why they traded Moses. They want guys that can stay on the field and grow together. They believe that swapping guys in and out of the lineup makes things worse.

I don't agree with that take, but it's what they believe.

I remember watching the Pro Bowl YEARS ago and they talked about how the defensive line is at an advantage because they just do what they always do- pin their ears back and rush. The offensive line, though, despite being a group of all stars, is disadvantaged from the lack of practice time as a unit.

I suppose it's not a super uncommon take.

 

[RavensMania]

I’m playing a little catch up on film (still breezing through though) so this is related to this game as well as the prior 2…

Zach Orr’s scheme problems I was going on about earlier in the season have seemingly disappeared. It’s almost like he needs a capable S and that unlocks what he really wants to do up front. Kyle Hamilton helps a ton, but it just feels like such a philosophical difference from what he was seemingly asking them to do early in the season. Either that or them dudes really was fucking up that badly early on. It’s night and day. It’s not perfect but such a massive improvement.

we were having the same issues with capable safety play last year, so I'd say your take is spot on. That being said, I'd like to see them do it against more fundamentally sound teams.

 

[Baltimorican]

I remember watching the Pro Bowl YEARS ago and they talked about how the defensive line is at an advantage because they just do what they always do- pin their ears back and rush. The offensive line, though, despite being a group of all stars, is disadvantaged from the lack of practice time as a unit.

I suppose it's not a super uncommon take.

We've probably all seen the film breakdowns by now. Vorhees was getting beaten too often by his man. yes he's improved last few weeks but the key there is: by his man. Faalale doesn't seem to have a clue what his assignment is a solid half dozen plays /game. As soon as the bodies start shifting and the scrum gets muddied it's like he flakes and doesn't know where to go. His thought process seems so random that of course the guys next to him start to doubt where the next body is going to come from.

No, I am not an expert on OLine play, but that's what video after video of people who do break it down are showing and saying. I backed Faalale all of last year and felt vindicated when he turned in a decent 2nd half. theer is a world where in a different blocking scheme surrounded by studs he can turn in a poor man's Mehki Benton type season.

But there is no way in hell he's gonna play well on this OLine this season, it's a 100% lost cause.

 

[Tank]

I won't go as sunshiny and rainbowy as you, but I do agree that people should not take what Harbaugh says at face value. He's been here 18 years now and the last 10 or so have been as vague as they possibly can be on literally every important question ever. I'm sure those boys are getting their asses reamed behind closed doors.

I don't think he's vague and not forthcoming with the specific intention of keeping fans in the dark. I do think he believes that what happens and what is said in the locker room behind closed doors should remain there. And he's never been one to publicly call out any player or coach, so no one should be surprised by his comments.

 

[allblackraven]

Orr has successfully reconfigured his defense for the 2nd straight year. The flock owes many an apology.

I'll wait until we face a couple of competent teams, with real quarterbacks. Addition of Gilman and Jones helped a lot, so I'm hopeful.

 

[Simba]

Respectfully, I disagree. It's not your job to have a very high salary investment defense and shit the bed early in the year to put yourself behind the 8 ball every year. I'm glad things have looked better but dont forget you've literally been playing absolutely trash teams. When we were playing good teams, we were giving up 40+.

Not at all sure we can say the defense "is back". The things I think we can say are Malaki Starks and Alohi Gilman are playing more fundamentally sound S. And that Dremont Jones looks to be a slight upgrade on Oweh.

I apologize for being overly negative, but if you saw the game winning drive on defense vs Cleveland, we got lucky as fuck. Shedeur throw multiple in the dirt when his guy was open. Shedeur overthrew a guy open in the end zone. Sheduer actually threw a TD ball while Awuzie had his back 100% turned. We just got lucky that he played through the whistle on his rip of the receiver's hands and he dropped it.

I mean, we still have some personnel issues. We can only do so much with schemed pressure. We're quite simply going to need those guys to step up and win 1v1 battles when the going gets tough, and that issue probably gets re-magnified against better teams.

We're not perfect, but we're better. It's a unit you can win with still. It just unfortunately requires us to lock in and not make dumb mistakes.

I know this wasn't a direct reply to my post... but I'm simply pointing out that some of the philosophical issues are now gone. It seems ZO can start to do some things because the back line of defense is capable and running how he wants, so he can be more exotic up front.

 

[Simba]

I don't think he's vague and not forthcoming with the specific intention of keeping fans in the dark. I do think he believes that what happens and what is said in the locker room behind closed doors should remain there. And he's never been one to publicly call out any player or coach, so no one should be surprised by his comments.

He doesn't give a shit about the fans. Everything he says up there is for the betterment of the team, at least in his and the organization's eyes. His goal is to keep as much in house as possible - both for competitive advantage and knowing how players, staff, etc. react to public shaming. A lot of people are trying to paint Harbaugh as some dumb lackey but he knows everyone in that building in and out and crafts responses based on that.

And if people don't think PR has a heavy hand in what he's even allowed to say up there...

 

[rmcjacket23]

The Ravens fan base has been right before, especially when it's this unanimous. Not saying we are now, but it's not a given that Harbs is in the right on this one. There isn't a ravens fan out there buying the media take that Lamar needs to run more, we know the guards suck.

The only thing the fanbase is "right" about is that Faalele sucks. That's it. They have no possible way of "being right" about who should be starting instead.
I honestly have no idea why the fanbase even continues talking about Cleveland as an option for anything. Baffles me. Jones is the one we should be discussing as potentially taking over, and fans "should" know that he's not ready yet, given the amount of actual practice time he's seen in the last year.

 

[gtalk12]

The only thing the fanbase is "right" about is that Faalele sucks. That's it. They have no possible way of "being right" about who should be starting instead.
I honestly have no idea why the fanbase even continues talking about Cleveland as an option for anything. Baffles me. Jones is the one we should be discussing as potentially taking over, and fans "should" know that he's not ready yet, given the amount of actual practice time he's seen in the last year.

Hasn't Cleveland seen the field during the regular season over the last few years? If so, how did he play?

 

[Ice Bowl]

Our matchups is only 5 weeks away. It’s coming fast. I’m nervous for that one.

 

[Simba]

Hasn't Cleveland seen the field during the regular season over the last few years? If so, how did he play?

He's started 7 games in his career and I believe he's played well in 3 of them. He also hasn't started a game since 2023. So it's not like he's some fool proof plan either. And his performance this preseason was just as dreadful as what we're getting now.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

I’m playing a little catch up on film (still breezing through though) so this is related to this game as well as the prior 2…

Zach Orr’s scheme problems I was going on about earlier in the season have seemingly disappeared. It’s almost like he needs a capable S and that unlocks what he really wants to do up front. Kyle Hamilton helps a ton, but it just feels like such a philosophical difference from what he was seemingly asking them to do early in the season. Either that or them dudes really was fucking up that badly early on. It’s night and day. It’s not perfect but such a massive improvement.

Add a rookie Malaki starks, new to the system in awuzie, new to the system in Alexander, rookie LB Buchanan and Trenton Simpson trying to cover, no pass rush at all, and I can see how a scheme built on sim pressures and rotating coverages would absolutely fall apart.

Gilman along with starks getting his feet under him unlocked the ability to stop the big play. Buchanan getting familiar helped a ton with the underneath stuff and was a multiplier because it made Roquan more effective, Simpson is now used more as a blitzer which is what he’s always needed to be. Hamilton oddly unlocked the pressures because he’s our most effective pass rusher and now he annihilates the screen and outlets for the qb, which was hurting us earlier.

There is just a complexity to this scheme and that’s not to say it’s overly complex or messy, but you need familiarity in the deep and center field or there’s potential for it to look like a disaster

 

[Simba]

Add a rookie Malaki starks, new to the system in awuzie, new to the system in Alexander, rookie LB Buchanan and Trenton Simpson trying to cover, no pass rush at all, and I can see how a scheme built on sim pressures and rotating coverages would absolutely fall apart.

Gilman along with starks getting his feet under him unlocked the ability to stop the big play. Buchanan getting familiar helped a ton with the underneath stuff and was a multiplier because it made Roquan more effective, Simpson is now used more as a blitzer which is what he’s always needed to be. Hamilton oddly unlocked the pressures because he’s our most effective pass rusher and now he annihilates the screen and outlets for the qb, which was hurting us earlier.

There is just a complexity to this scheme and that’s not to say it’s overly complex or messy, but you need familiarity in the deep and center field or there’s potential for it to look like a disaster

Yep exactly what I'm getting at, but more detailed. Things have simply just settled in, and I think some of the disguise that looked awful early on wasn't working because (a) the personnel was new and/or injured and (b) we didn't have trust where we needed it most for it to be effective. I'm still far from saying it's perfect, but guys feel a lot more functional and comfortable and that helps some of these wrinkles that ZO clearly wants to throw out there.

With that being said, I do still wonder if ZO is truly "ready" for the role he's in, but he's clearly learning on the job now vs. the continued failure after failure we saw early on this season.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

The Ravens fan base has been right before, especially when it's this unanimous. Not saying we are now, but it's not a given that Harbs is in the right on this one. There isn't a ravens fan out there buying the media take that Lamar needs to run more, we know the guards suck.

I distinctly recall the BR.com board clamoring for mckinnie replacing Michael oher at LT, moving Michael oher to RT, and KO to LG(along with firing cam Cameron but that’s another deal)

We’ve literally been down this road before, at least as fans saying there is a better OL configuration and being right about it.

That said, that unit was extremely talented, this one is not. This is about which options sucks slightly less

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Yep exactly what I'm getting at, but more detailed. Things have simply just settled in, and I think some of the disguise that looked awful early on wasn't working because (a) the personnel was new and/or injured and (b) we didn't have trust where we needed it most for it to be effective. I'm still far from saying it's perfect, but guys feel a lot more functional and comfortable and that helps some of these wrinkles that ZO clearly wants to throw out there.

With that being said, I do still wonder if ZO is truly "ready" for the role he's in, but he's clearly learning on the job now vs. the continued failure after failure we saw early on this season.

It’ll take a lot for me to trust anyone on this team, and ZO is right near the top of the distrusted ones, but if this continues all year and against better competition then that’ll be 2 years in a row that he adjusted on the fly, with minimal pass rush talent, and coordinated a top unit down the home stretch.

At worst it’s not a plug and play kinda unit and every year they have a slow start.

At best he’s learning quickly about how to self evaluate and adjusting.

Now where i get concerned is the situational play calling against high end offensive minds, if he can show promise there if/when we get there, then I will begin feeling much better about him as a DC

 

[Simba]

It’ll take a lot for me to trust anyone on this team, and ZO is right near the top of the distrusted ones, but if this continues all year and against better competition then that’ll be 2 years in a row that he adjusted on the fly, with minimal pass rush talent, and coordinated a top unit down the home stretch.

At worst it’s not a plug and play kinda unit and every year they have a slow start.

At best he’s learning quickly about how to self evaluate and adjusting.

Now where i get concerned is the situational play calling against high end offensive minds, if he can show promise there if/when we get there, then I will begin feeling much better about him as a DC

Counterpoint to this is I think he struggled heavily to adjust early in the season. I totally understand having a philosophy but if your players aren’t functional in it, you’ve got to change. Thats what my biggest concern was early on - the entire defense was struggling with complex zone concepts and long running schemed pressure, and he just kept doubling down despite 0 results. I’m glad he got the personnel he needs but you also have to adjust for the personnel you have until you get the personnel you need.

 

[Grim]

Two years in a row his Defense took time to settle. If he and Harbaugh last until next year, there better not be a third year where it repeats