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The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

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It is indisputable that gun control has worked, in conjunction with other things, in most other advanced nations. To deny that is to simply deny reality.

Australia enacted strict gun control in the 1990s and hasn't had a mass shooting since. The homicide rate has also declined.

The UK enacted gun control laws in the early 2000s and has seen a decline in gun violence.

Japan has had a zero tolerance law since 1958 and has one of the lowest gun violence rates in the world.

There is a statistical correlation between gun ownership and gun violence.

If you can't see this, get some help.

And, if gun control isn't the answer, what the hell is?
Serious question, how can you implement any kind of gun control with the way things are? This kinda topic is like healthcare for me and my fellow kangaroo/tea and crumpet comrades in that the situation you're arguing for is simply the reality of things (and personally I wouldn't have it any other way), but it seems like you guys are so awash with guns that the genie left the bottle a while ago and it's almost a supply-side issue these days as opposed to a regulation one.

Certain gun-free zones seem to work (stadiums) while others don't (wasn't that part of Vegas one such example?), and enforceability is obviously the main predictor. If you try to take a gun into a stadium, security can (and should) take it off your hands, but gun-free zones are a well-meaning system that can't be enforced at the border with regularity (and for all the right likes to talk about Chicago as an example of them not working, a lot of guns come in from less stringent Indiana). If I were made emperor, I'd probably make the gun purchase/access rules consistent throughout the country (and tell the states to go fuck themselves), and try to tighten the tap on the supply of new guns - but either change like that would probably take nearly a generation to actually do anything. I'm honestly not sure what can realistically be done.

And before someone on the right jumps on you about the UK's knife problems, I'd rather get stabbed than shot. Every time someone over here tries to bring up the idea of loosening the gun laws, I just say that I don't want us to end up with the situation you guys have over there. Someone tried to mug me a few months ago (guy told me to empty my pockets, I told him to get bent, he ran at me and I yelled out so he pulled up and I got the hell out of dodge) and there's no way in the world I'd wish I had a gun for that experience. 1) There's no way in hell I'd be composed enough to shoot straight (it took me a week to even think about the whole thing without getting an adrenaline kick); 2) If I have one he sure as shit has one, and even if he doesn't; 3) There's no way I'd be able to get it out and use it in time - he was close enough that I'd be easy to disarm and then he has a gun and I don't. These John Wayne fantasies come from people who I suspect spend more time watching movies than having much actual experience for the situations they're advocating. When it comes to mass shootings, I still wouldn't want a gun on hand because 4) I don't want to make the police's job any more difficult and; 5) If someone else starts shooting there's no way to know if they're a self-identified hero or another gunman (and no end of clusterfucks can emerge from that). But then I've never had to worry about being caught up in a mass shooting or held at gunpoint because I live in one of said advanced countries with established gun laws.

TL;DR: I don't disagree with your stance on gun control, though in reality I wouldn't know where to begin fixing the problem you guys have.
 
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Serious question, how can you implement any kind of gun control with the way things are? This kinda topic is like healthcare for me and my fellow kangaroo/tea and crumpet comrades in that the situation you're arguing for is simply the reality of things (and personally I wouldn't have it any other way), but it seems like you guys are so awash with guns that the genie left the bottle a while ago and it's almost a supply-side issue these days as opposed to a regulation one.

Certain gun-free zones seem to work (stadiums) while others don't (wasn't that part of Vegas one such example?), and enforceability is obviously the main predictor. If you try to take a gun into a stadium, security can (and should) take it off your hands, but gun-free zones are a well-meaning system that can't be enforced at the border with regularity (and for all the right likes to talk about Chicago as an example of them not working, a lot of guns come in from less stringent Indiana). If I were made emperor, I'd probably make the gun purchase/access rules consistent throughout the country (and tell the states to go fuck themselves), and try to tighten the tap on the supply of new guns - but either change like that would probably take nearly a generation to actually do anything. I'm honestly not sure what can realistically be done.

And before someone on the right jumps on you about the UK's knife problems, I'd rather get stabbed than shot. Every time someone over here tries to bring up the idea of loosening the gun laws, I just say that I don't want us to end up with the situation you guys have over there. Someone tried to mug me a few months ago (guy told me to empty my pockets, I told him to get bent, he ran at me and I yelled out so he pulled up and I got the hell out of dodge) and there's no way in the world I'd wish I had a gun for that experience. 1) There's no way in hell I'd be composed enough to shoot straight (it took me a week to even think about the whole thing without getting an adrenaline kick); 2) If I have one he sure as shit has one, and even if he doesn't; 3) There's no way I'd be able to get it out and use it in time - he was close enough that I'd be easy to disarm and then he has a gun and I don't. These John Wayne fantasies come from people who I suspect spend more time watching movies than having much actual experience for the situations they're advocating. When it comes to mass shootings, I still wouldn't want a gun on hand because 4) I don't want to make the police's job any more difficult and; 5) If someone else starts shooting there's no way to know if they're a self-identified hero or another gunman (and no end of clusterfucks can emerge from that). But then I've never had to worry about being caught up in a mass shooting or held at gunpoint because I live in one of said advanced countries with established gun laws.

TL;DR: I don't disagree with your stance on gun control, though in reality I wouldn't know where to begin fixing the problem you guys have.
Yeah seriously. I do think gun regulations are necessary to a certain extent. Again, I'm a pro gun guy but I wouldn't trust half of the people I know with a firearm, or even basic hand to hand combat training. Given the fact that people have owned guns in this country since it's inception, abolishing the second amendment is an impossibility at this point. Not only would abolishing it take forever, but so many people would be against it. Even if they did get rid of the second amendment and managed to take a away a lot of the population's guns, you'd have yourself a black market scenario. I.e Herion is illegal, but if I really wanted to, I could still buy it.

I do agree with the notion that it should be harder to get guns. But a massive problem in my opinion is that the states control gun policy. Example: Nevada's gun laws are some of the laxest while California's are some of the harshest. In some instances in Nevada, you don't need to even have a permit to buy a gun. Which is absurd and insanely idiotic. Given that we can't get rid of the guns, regulating how easy it is for people to get them should be in order. That said, regulations shouldn't be too harsh either. Then you push the black market stuff indirectly anyway, and we still have the same damn problems we do now.

I'm of the notion that stricter background checks are necessary, and even mental screenings should be necessary to buy a gun. You have to undergo these things to enter the military, and they use assault rifles so why not here? A gun is a weapon. A car in a sense could be used as a weapon and we as teenagers in this country are forced to go through drivers education, why don't prospective and potential gun owners have to take gun safety courses by law in some states after they pass the background checks/extensive mental screenings? It's a potential small step, but one in the right direction. And I don't think this would deter the potential buyers. Most gun people I've met would be more than willing to go through a program like this to ensure this. Several gun deaths in the country are accidents.

I'm a republican, and sure I'm pro gun but let's be realistic. There are 350 million people in this country. More than the populations of the UK, Australia, and Japan combined. You're not only going to be incapable of disarming most Americans, but you're also bound to have a few psychopaths. Even if you'd take the guns away, they'll find a way to kill people. If I REALLY wanted to, I could go into downtown Denver in an SUV and run over 100+ people in ten minutes(what are you gonna do, run away? I'm in a car.. I win). I could also light a gas trail from my car next to a building an throw down the lighter essentially turning my car into a bomb. Now, I'm a (somewhat) sane individual so I wouldn't do that obviously, but people have started turning to cars to run people over. Psyhopaths will find a way to kill people. Getting rid of the guns is an impossibility and the far left people who suggest it need to get their head out of their asses and realize that. Guns have been in the system for too damn long. That said, the morons on the far right also need to ge their head out of their asses and realize: "Hey, if we continue to do nothing and are stubborn and won't compromise with anyone, this problem is not only going to persist, but get worse". Honestly, a good gun control policy that's fair is actually very achieveable. Both sides(and yes it's both of them even if the right is the dumber of the two on this subject) are just unwilling to do shit and compromise.

So is anything going to get done? Not likely. Which is stupid. But that's this country for you.
 
It is indisputable that gun control has worked, in conjunction with other things, in most other advanced nations. To deny that is to simply deny reality.

Australia enacted strict gun control in the 1990s and hasn't had a mass shooting since. The homicide rate has also declined.

The UK enacted gun control laws in the early 2000s and has seen a decline in gun violence.

Japan has had a zero tolerance law since 1958 and has one of the lowest gun violence rates in the world.

There is a statistical correlation between gun ownership and gun violence.

If you can't see this, get some help.

And, if gun control isn't the answer, what the hell is?
Yes there has been mass shootings, but gun violence had been on the decline here in the USA until recently. Stricter law enforcement, such as Stop and Frisk work. Take away Stop and Frisk, then those carrying illegal guns on the street have no reason to fear random checks. Because of all the recent backlash toward police, they are backing off enforcement efforts, therefore gun violence is on the rise. You can curb crime and violence with stricter law enforcement, however many individuals and groups are upset with doing that and have stopped it. Therefore, crime and violence is back on the rise, and it is not going to get better anytime soon.
 
Serious question, how can you implement any kind of gun control with the way things are? This kinda topic is like healthcare for me and my fellow kangaroo/tea and crumpet comrades in that the situation you're arguing for is simply the reality of things (and personally I wouldn't have it any other way), but it seems like you guys are so awash with guns that the genie left the bottle a while ago and it's almost a supply-side issue these days as opposed to a regulation one.

Certain gun-free zones seem to work (stadiums) while others don't (wasn't that part of Vegas one such example?), and enforceability is obviously the main predictor. If you try to take a gun into a stadium, security can (and should) take it off your hands, but gun-free zones are a well-meaning system that can't be enforced at the border with regularity (and for all the right likes to talk about Chicago as an example of them not working, a lot of guns come in from less stringent Indiana). If I were made emperor, I'd probably make the gun purchase/access rules consistent throughout the country (and tell the states to go fuck themselves), and try to tighten the tap on the supply of new guns - but either change like that would probably take nearly a generation to actually do anything. I'm honestly not sure what can realistically be done.

And before someone on the right jumps on you about the UK's knife problems, I'd rather get stabbed than shot. Every time someone over here tries to bring up the idea of loosening the gun laws, I just say that I don't want us to end up with the situation you guys have over there. Someone tried to mug me a few months ago (guy told me to empty my pockets, I told him to get bent, he ran at me and I yelled out so he pulled up and I got the hell out of dodge) and there's no way in the world I'd wish I had a gun for that experience. 1) There's no way in hell I'd be composed enough to shoot straight (it took me a week to even think about the whole thing without getting an adrenaline kick); 2) If I have one he sure as shit has one, and even if he doesn't; 3) There's no way I'd be able to get it out and use it in time - he was close enough that I'd be easy to disarm and then he has a gun and I don't. These John Wayne fantasies come from people who I suspect spend more time watching movies than having much actual experience for the situations they're advocating. When it comes to mass shootings, I still wouldn't want a gun on hand because 4) I don't want to make the police's job any more difficult and; 5) If someone else starts shooting there's no way to know if they're a self-identified hero or another gunman (and no end of clusterfucks can emerge from that). But then I've never had to worry about being caught up in a mass shooting or held at gunpoint because I live in one of said advanced countries with established gun laws.

TL;DR: I don't disagree with your stance on gun control, though in reality I wouldn't know where to begin fixing the problem you guys have.

One thing that would work, I think, in the northern states, is a gun buy-back program like the one Australia instituted. But you're right. Guns are so ingrained in the culture here that eliminating them is the problem. A buy-back program helps, but, I'm not sure what a better solution is.

I really don't understand our neanderthal obsession with firearms. Like, honestly, what the hell? Why is a fucking firearm so intrinsic to our personal identity and culture? Ah, I guess I'm just a snobbish northerner elitist.

Yes there has been mass shootings, but gun violence had been on the decline here in the USA until recently. Stricter law enforcement, such as Stop and Frisk work. Take away Stop and Frisk, then those carrying illegal guns on the street have no reason to fear random checks. Because of all the recent backlash toward police, they are backing off enforcement efforts, therefore gun violence is on the rise. You can curb crime and violence with stricter law enforcement, however many individuals and groups are upset with doing that and have stopped it. Therefore, crime and violence is back on the rise, and it is not going to get better anytime soon.

First of all, stop and frisk is blatantly unconstitutional (hello 4th Amendment), so I'm gonna stop you right there. Second of all, crime in New York City actually decreased after stop and frisk was ended: https://www.brennancenter.org/blog/ending-new-yorks-stop-and-frisk-did-not-increase-crime. Third of all, even with these mass shootings we hear about, violent crime in the U.S. is not "back on the rise": http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/21/5-facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/
 
One thing that would work, I think, in the northern states, is a gun buy-back program like the one Australia instituted. But you're right. Guns are so ingrained in the culture here that eliminating them is the problem. A buy-back program helps, but, I'm not sure what a better solution is.

I really don't understand our neanderthal obsession with firearms. Like, honestly, what the hell? Why is a fucking firearm so intrinsic to our personal identity and culture? Ah, I guess I'm just a snobbish northerner elitist.



First of all, stop and frisk is blatantly unconstitutional (hello 4th Amendment), so I'm gonna stop you right there. Second of all, crime in New York City actually decreased after stop and frisk was ended: https://www.brennancenter.org/blog/ending-new-yorks-stop-and-frisk-did-not-increase-crime. Third of all, even with these mass shootings we hear about, violent crime in the U.S. is not "back on the rise": http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/21/5-facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/
I have seen those gun by backs and they can be such a waste of taxpayer money. People turn in these old beat up firearms or relics that don’t work and get good money for them. It just doesn’t work in getting guns out of the hands of criminals.

I did not want to argue the constitutionality of Stop and Frisk, I am just saying it works in getting illegal guns off the street. Every second of every day someone is patted down in an airport and planes are super safe now. When things get out of control in the big cities, and they are starting to now, it is something to think about in the future.
 
I have seen those gun by backs and they can be such a waste of taxpayer money. People turn in these old beat up firearms or relics that don’t work and get good money for them. It just doesn’t work in getting guns out of the hands of criminals.

I did not want to argue the constitutionality of Stop and Frisk, I am just saying it works in getting illegal guns off the street. Every second of every day someone is patted down in an airport and planes are super safe now. When things get out of control in the big cities, and they are starting to now, it is something to think about in the future.

"When things get out of control in the big cities, and they are starting to now, it is something to think about in the future."

Damn, it's like you ignored half my post. In fact, it looks like you ignored the part of the post that disproved this entire point. Crime went down in NYC after stop and frisk ended, and things are not going "out of control" in big cities. Crime across the country is down. A few cities are up in crime in recent years -- most of them in the gun crazy South -- but I wouldn't call it "out of control." For the record, most of the big cities in the north, where gun control is accepted, saw reductions in gun violence. Hell, even Philly and NYC saw reductions.

I'm not saying gun control in isolation is the lone solution but there is a shit ton of statistical correlation.
 
Those who wish to break the law will do so illegally.

you make guns illegal then having a gun is illegal - there may be people who still really want guns and go and get them but as soon as they draw them/carry them/look like they might have them then they would legally be allowed to be arrested and detained

it's not a quick fix its a long term solution...

there can be no argument that things are fine: the satirical online news site the onion has run the same fucking item now 5 times in the last 3-4 years verbatim with the headline:
‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

i dont understand how people can say there is nothing to be done... it is unacceptable and it makes me feel ill whenever the next one happens because as a non-US citizen there is nothing I can do about it because its a US issue - i very rarely feel helpless but the inaction of others in the US every time there is a mass shooting makes me feel angry, sad and helpless every single time
 
you make guns illegal then having a gun is illegal - there may be people who still really want guns and go and get them but as soon as they draw them/carry them/look like they might have them then they would legally be allowed to be arrested and detained

it's not a quick fix its a long term solution...

there can be no argument that things are fine: the satirical online news site the onion has run the same fucking item now 5 times in the last 3-4 years verbatim with the headline:
‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

i dont understand how people can say there is nothing to be done... it is unacceptable and it makes me feel ill whenever the next one happens because as a non-US citizen there is nothing I can do about it because its a US issue - i very rarely feel helpless but the inaction of others in the US every time there is a mass shooting makes me feel angry, sad and helpless every single time
It's easier to give thoughts and prayer than real fucking solutions. Stop making people uncomfortable. God, Guns, America! /s
 
you make guns illegal then having a gun is illegal - there may be people who still really want guns and go and get them but as soon as they draw them/carry them/look like they might have them then they would legally be allowed to be arrested and detained

it's not a quick fix its a long term solution...

there can be no argument that things are fine: the satirical online news site the onion has run the same fucking item now 5 times in the last 3-4 years verbatim with the headline:
‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

i dont understand how people can say there is nothing to be done... it is unacceptable and it makes me feel ill whenever the next one happens because as a non-US citizen there is nothing I can do about it because its a US issue - i very rarely feel helpless but the inaction of others in the US every time there is a mass shooting makes me feel angry, sad and helpless every single time

Here is the point.

Timothey McVeigh killed 168 people and didn't fire one shot. Up until the detonation of the bomb everything was optained legally.
If wack-a-doodles want to cause mass carnage. There are options rather than guns.
 
Here is the point.

Timothey McVeigh killed 168 people and didn't fire one shot. Up until the detonation of the bomb everything was optained legally.
If wack-a-doodles want to cause mass carnage. There are options rather than guns.
Sure, but what proportion of terrorist acts are committed with a gun vs other means?
 
Here is the point.

Timothey McVeigh killed 168 people and didn't fire one shot. Up until the detonation of the bomb everything was optained legally.
If wack-a-doodles want to cause mass carnage. There are options rather than guns.

wack-a-doodles exist everywhere - the US doesnt have a monopoly on them yet somehow the rest of the western world still doesnt have the same problems with mass-(not)shootings either
 
wack-a-doodles exist everywhere - the US doesnt have a monopoly on them yet somehow the rest of the western world still doesnt have the same problems with mass-(not)shootings either

The answer to that is obvious.
Ease and access.
What McVeigh did and the 9-11 terrorists did were pretty involved operations.
Point being though, where there is a will there are multiple ways.
 
The answer to that is obvious.
Ease and access.
What McVeigh did and the 9-11 terrorists did were pretty involved operations.
Point being though, where there is a will there are multiple ways.

so what's the harm in reducing the number of ways?
 
"When things get out of control in the big cities, and they are starting to now, it is something to think about in the future."

Damn, it's like you ignored half my post. In fact, it looks like you ignored the part of the post that disproved this entire point. Crime went down in NYC after stop and frisk ended, and things are not going "out of control" in big cities. Crime across the country is down. A few cities are up in crime in recent years -- most of them in the gun crazy South -- but I wouldn't call it "out of control." For the record, most of the big cities in the north, where gun control is accepted, saw reductions in gun violence. Hell, even Philly and NYC saw reductions.

I'm not saying gun control in isolation is the lone solution but there is a shit ton of statistical correlation.
I did not ignore half your post. I just think your facts are wrong. Look at Baltimore, Chicago, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Memphis, Kansas City, Little Rock, Oakland, and Detroit. Gun violence is way up and yes it is getting out of control. The New York Times reported just a few days ago that violent crime is up for the second straight year in the United States. Violent crime is up 4.1% nationally and homicides are up nationally 8.6%. The year before violent crime was up 3.9% and homicides were up 10.8% nationally. You are not alarmed by that? BTW, you know that Stop and Frisk is still allowed under the Fourth Amendment right? - so it is absolutely NOT “blatantly unconstitutional.” And yes I know about New York City.
 
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so what's the harm in reducing the number of ways?
It is a violation of our constitution.
The founding document of this country.
It expresses the limits of our government ( or is supposed to :rolleyes: ) While spelling out our rights and freedoms.
 
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