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The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

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I am beyond exhausted and pretty cranky, so I really shouldn't dive into this dialog again. But here I am. *sigh*

Speaking on behalf of myself at the very least, I want to make one thing so absolutely clear. As a person who is "bothered" by these "protests" I am not bothered by the reasoning behind the "protests" I am bothered by the means. Yes racism exists. Yes it is an atrocity. But in my mind to protest during the National Anthem about police brutality is akin to protesting drunk driving in front of the Marlboro factory.

In any given week there are four hours set aside for football and 168 hours for everything else. Within that four hour football window is +/- 2:00 minutes for the National Anthem.
Do you really mean to tell me that two minutes is the absolute optimum time to enact true effective change. I am not talking about making a statement.
Bumper stickers make statements. Do you know what that is? A statement, that and a buck fifty will buy you a cup of coffee.
I am more impressed with people who make a change, rather than those who make a statement.
Other than division, what change is taking place by kneeling during the National Anthem ?
Its also a disgrace that we focus so much on the protests rather than the issue at hand. People are making a bigger deal of the actual protests than what they are protesting. The problems at hand exist and we cant keep ignoring them. If players feel there is problems then they need to act on them not kneeling and disrespecting our country. People arent making the problem any better by recording people kneeling and complaininb when they should be standing for the anthem with hand over heart.

I understand the players ambition just not theyre actions. Alejandro Villenuava. I salute you sir
 
Its also a disgrace that we focus so much on the protests rather than the issue at hand.

Exactly. The thing is the protests are every tangible and visual. The issue, in the four hour football window is pretty much invisible. Again, protesting drunk driving in front of Marlboro.
 
and this is what makes it sad, players have spoken out about it plenty of times but nobody really cares about them. When I was younger I spoke about the issues that plagued us (I'm from Jersey) and nobody really seemed to care unless it was fellow people that came from the areas I came from which usually were fellow blacks.

This question keeps getting avoided time and time again but why do you not blame the politicians that have run your city and your police force for the last half a century? Are you at all concerned about black on black crime? Are these oppressed areas high in crime where police have died answering the call? Is it good to depend on the govt for a living? This is a fact gtalk black families were the strongest family units in the 50's and early 60's but the war on poverty ended all that. Now its the worst.
 
Wow, that must have been gut-wrenching.
Thanks, I never thought it would hit me like that, when my wife went out to ask me what was wrong I had such a lump in my throat, I was afraid to talk. It hit me in my gut to have my mom ask me if I was going to give away the jersey she got me for Christmas. I guess she thought I was going to do what my dad did. I guess my mom don't understand all this, I don't really think my dad does either. The thought of not being able to talk football with my dad anymore is hard to comprehend. I will say a prayer tonight that this blows over and can get resolved.
 
Its also a disgrace that we focus so much on the protests rather than the issue at hand. People are making a bigger deal of the actual protests than what they are protesting. The problems at hand exist and we cant keep ignoring them. If players feel there is problems then they need to act on them not kneeling and disrespecting our country. People arent making the problem any better by recording people kneeling and complaininb when they should be standing for the anthem with hand over heart.

I understand the players ambition just not theyre actions. Alejandro Villenuava. I salute you sir

I agree. If you want true unity the please don't disrespect our flag especially in a foreign country.
 
Thanks, I never thought it would hit me like that, when my wife went out to ask me what was wrong I had such a lump in my throat, I was afraid to talk. It hit me in my gut to have my mom ask me if I was going to give away the jersey she got me for Christmas. I guess she thought I was going to do what my dad did. I guess my mom don't understand all this, I don't really think my dad does either. The thought of not being able to talk football with my dad anymore is hard to comprehend. I will say a prayer tonight that this blows over and can get resolved.

Really sorry to hear about this Cobra. I just hope somehow everything will get worked out in the end.
 
I am beyond exhausted and pretty cranky, so I really shouldn't dive into this dialog again. But here I am. *sigh*

Speaking on behalf of myself at the very least, I want to make one thing so absolutely clear. As a person who is "bothered" by these "protests" I am not bothered by the reasoning behind the "protests" I am bothered by the means. Yes racism exists. Yes it is an atrocity. But in my mind to protest during the National Anthem about police brutality is akin to protesting drunk driving in front of the Marlboro factory.

In any given week there are four hours set aside for football and 168 hours for everything else. Within that four hour football window is +/- 2:00 minutes for the National Anthem.
Do you really mean to tell me that two minutes is the absolute optimum time to enact true effective change. I am not talking about making a statement.
Bumper stickers make statements. Do you know what that is? A statement, that and a buck fifty will buy you a cup of coffee.
I am more impressed with people who make a change, rather than those who make a statement.
Other than division, what change is taking place by kneeling during the National Anthem ?
I disagree. I think sports is a good venue for instigating discussions and keeping topics at the forefront of the public consciousness. People's instincts are to brush uncomfortable topics aside and until they get inconvenienced themselves very little actually gets done.

Muhammad Ali using his platform as a conscientious objector is a good example. He was a prominent athlete who used his platform to voice his thoughts about the Vietnam War and the way African-Americans were being treated. Or the Black Power salute in 1968.

But the example that springs to mind for me as a NZer is the Springbok tours of the 1980s. South Africa's rugby side toured here, but there were hugely intense divisions about whether the country should let them in because of the Apartheid government. In the end the games went ahead but protestors ended up demonstrating in the streets and trying to get the games cancelled - succeeding in getting one game called off because of how intense things got. The fallout was that a return tour to South Africa got blocked by the courts and the rugby board ended up not organising any tours to or from South Africa until the Apartheid regime was overturned. NZ kinda dragged its feet on this one, but rugby, as South South Africa's most popular sport, became an avenue to put pressure on the South African government. I'm sure many white South Africans (irrespective of what they thought of Apartheid) would have felt that the politics should be left out of sports, but in retrospect I'd say everyone agrees that it didn't hurt them as a comfortable majority (in power terms) to be inconvenienced for a little bit by not being able to watch their rugby side in action.

Likewise, racism and police brutality are topics that have been allowed to simmer away for ever because unless you live those experiences it's very easy to turn the topic off and ignore it for another day, and then nothing changes. If you're sick of hearing about it, a lot of these guys are sick of living it. And at least we can turn the NFL off and the issue doesn't affect us anymore. That's why a lot of these riots have gotten to the point of some really toxic nastiness - I don't condone killing officers by any stretch but it shows the frustration and helplessness that's been allowed to fester for years (without condoning a lot of those actions I can at least understand where it's coming from). Even if kneeling for the anthems doesn't explicitly bring about change, it's at least brought those genuine issues you mentioned to the forefront where they'd otherwise get swept under the rug.

As for practical solutions to the problem (and it's good that a few have been brought up here already - it shows that the protests are having at least some impact) that everyone should be able to agree on:
*Punish the bad officers for being bad officers. The Utah officer who harassed the Utah nurse when he was clearly in the wrong getting paid leave was bullshit. The guy who killed Philando Castille getting off scot-free when the whole thing on camera shows the system is broken. Instead you get this system where it's easier for officers to dodge charges and they end getting paid leave or rotated somewhere else after something goes wrong, and everyone wonders why there are these cyclical tensions. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that simply punishing the bad officers, and doing so publicly, would at least be a first step in restoring public faith in the police, as well as being a win for the good officers who don't have the troglodytes reflecting badly on them anymore.
*Reallocate a good amount of federal funding to local police forces. The Ferguson police department got 14% of its revenue in 2013 from fines and forfeiture, up from 7% in 2013. That sounds fine in theory, but making fines an increasingly vital part of police funding starts to mess with incentives (and it's worth stressing that this isn't any one person's fault), especially when the fines are for pretty miniscule things, like how two people in Arizona got jail time for not trimming weeds that had exceeded six inches, or a guy in Ferguson who was resting in his car after a basketball game and got fined for not wearing a seatbelt in his (parked) car and for making a false declaration after giving an abbreviated version of his name. If an extra $12 billion is going to build the wall, wouldn't it be better to allocate that money to local police departments so they're not under that kind of pressure to generate revenue from petty violations? And if the wall is an absolute must-have (I'm not convinced the benefits outweigh the costs but whatever) surely there's gotta be money from somewhere.
 
And while I'm here I see that Trump's extended his travel ban to include Venezuela and North Korea.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...tended-to-blocks-on-north-korea-and-venezuela

Beyond being for show, I'm not even sure what the point of this is. I couldn't find the direct US-Venezuela rates (probably because they're hard to gauge accurately) but Venezuela's net migration as of the most recent figures was -0.46 per 1000, or not even 100,000 people (so Venezuela's population took a smaller hit from net migration than Ireland or Latvia), most of whom I'd imagine would be resettling in other South American countries. North Korea's net migration rate? 0 people per 1000. Not even a per cent of a per cent of a per cent.
 
on a lighta note some nascar owners just threatened to fire any of there drivers that make a protest during the anthem! you cant make this stuff up!

left turn left turn left turn

thank god for football!
 
I posted a link about how the flag is disrespected before every single game and kneeling is not amongst the list.

What is so ironic about this is the players keep talking about unity, yet fans are booing the players during the anthem for kneeling. This tells me fans are getting more and more pissed about these protests and have had enough. So the players preach unity while dividing the NFL and the fan base.
 
What is so ironic about this is the players keep talking about unity, yet fans are booing the players during the anthem for kneeling. This tells me fans are getting more and more pissed about these protests and have had enough. So the players preach unity while dividing the NFL and the fan base.
I think there's a bit of division on the topic, but one thing we can agree on is that it did bring attention to a cause.
 
Bringing attention to a cause is utterly worthless if all it does is annoy people looking to not think about that nonsense. As others have said before, you want real impact? Get the cameras in the face of every police chief in charge of these trigger happy or brutality first cops and ask them why are they still on the job. I'd rather crooked cops be fired and or jailed then rich athletes kneeling or hollywood actors telling everyone to join hands and sing coombia.
 
Bringing attention to a cause is utterly worthless if all it does is annoy people looking to not think about that nonsense. As others have said before, you want real impact? Get the cameras in the face of every police chief in charge of these trigger happy or brutality first cops and ask them why are they still on the job. I'd rather crooked cops be fired and or jailed then rich athletes kneeling or hollywood actors telling everyone to join hands and sing coombia.
Well, the thing is that many, many, many players are working with the police department and likely asking these questions, so...
 
Well, the thing is that many, many, many players are working with the police department and likely asking these questions, so...
Thats interesting have not heard that. Though I meant literally get cameras and reporters int here faces constantly. Eventually they would succumb to the pressure.
 
Thats interesting have not heard that. Though I meant literally get cameras and reporters int here faces constantly. Eventually they would succumb to the pressure.
I really hate when people say the players should do something and not just kneel because they are always out in the community actively participating and are very much working with the police force lately.

As for getting cameras in their faces, curious to know how they'd go about that. Genuinely curious since I'm not sure.
 
I really hate when people say the players should do something and not just kneel because they are always out in the community actively participating and are very much working with the police force lately.

As for getting cameras in their faces, curious to know how they'd go about that. Genuinely curious since I'm not sure.
Yeah the only thing ive heard of actually is kap donating 1 mil to helping out against racism i think? But honestly you have to go with a pretty aggressive approach in my opinion if you want results. No one wants to be in the news or have there face on camera constantly for being bad at their job or having questionable ethics. There are some good cops of course but a lot of them are bullies with an authorative badge. Im sure everyone here has had some unfair to put it mildly cops to deal with before or in my case that and customs at an international airport.
 
Yeah the only thing ive heard of actually is kap donating 1 mil to helping out against racism i think? But honestly you have to go with a pretty aggressive approach in my opinion if you want results. No one wants to be in the news or have there face on camera constantly for being bad at their job or having questionable ethics. There are some good cops of course but a lot of them are bullies with an authorative badge. Im sure everyone here has had some unfair to put it mildly cops to deal with before or in my case that and customs at an international airport.
Kaep does a lot with the community in the form of volunteer work and hosting camps and what not. He's actually pretty involved with under-privileged youths. We just don't hear about it because why would we? It's not football and that's anyone cares about when it comes to these players.

As for the cops, I believe 90% are good people with good intentions. I have yet to deal with a bad cop and have actually been treated in a really friendly way every time. I think much of that ties to being in a VERY white area with almost no crime so that the cops don't feel threatened at all, but I've been lucky.
 
Kaep does a lot with the community in the form of volunteer work and hosting camps and what not. He's actually pretty involved with under-privileged youths. We just don't hear about it because why would we? It's not football and that's anyone cares about when it comes to these players.

As for the cops, I believe 90% are good people with good intentions. I have yet to deal with a bad cop and have actually been treated in a really friendly way every time. I think much of that ties to being in a VERY white area with almost no crime so that the cops don't feel threatened at all, but I've been lucky.
True most people only care about football, which is fair, but then again reporters arent exactly frothing at the mouth to cover good deeds for the public. I have never lived in america clearly so I can't speak for all your cops but that is surprising you've never been hassled. I myself have not been that fortunate with such things.
 
And while I'm here I see that Trump's extended his travel ban to include Venezuela and North Korea.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...tended-to-blocks-on-north-korea-and-venezuela

Beyond being for show, I'm not even sure what the point of this is. I couldn't find the direct US-Venezuela rates (probably because they're hard to gauge accurately) but Venezuela's net migration as of the most recent figures was -0.46 per 1000, or not even 100,000 people (so Venezuela's population took a smaller hit from net migration than Ireland or Latvia), most of whom I'd imagine would be resettling in other South American countries. North Korea's net migration rate? 0 people per 1000. Not even a per cent of a per cent of a per cent.
American politics are about rhetoric and showmanship, not reality. Cause and effect doesn't matter here. Policy implications don't matter here. But goddammit that Trump is so star spangled awesome I don't even care /s

What does patriotism look like in NZ? Is it borderline jingoism like it is here?
 
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