The Embarrassment, the Blowout and the Coaching

[rmcjacket23]

i think LB is 100% a position that's low value... unless you have one of the elite 3-down guys like Fred Warner
and i think it's fair that when we paid Roquan, we thought he was in that group of guys, unfortunately he's not played that way since

RB I agree with entirely - the reason Henry was the cheapest of the guys who got paid last offseason (other than his age) was that he's not a guy who creates for himself and he's not a net positive on 3rd downs - i'm not saying i don't like the signing - but i am saying the extension seems funky and unnecessary to me - we gave him a ton of new guarantees and a big raise

What i would say about outside pass rusher is this:
the whole league struggles to draft those guys, especially outside of the top 20 (tbh more like top 10) - the ravens used to be good at finding guys who were good enough to be solid starters/complementary guys in day 3 at that spot to support an elite EDGE like Suggs or Dumervil (or both) and Ngata inside... it's notable that the pass rusher conveyor belt slowed and stopped when sizzle finally left

the problem with investing at pass rusher and IOL in free agency is... again that most teams have the same needs and most teams are struggling to fill those spots which means those guys get way overpaid if they're available

and there's not many drafts that have a TJ Watt who's available in the 20s, and while everyone hopes they've drafted Nik Bonitto on day 2, there's not many hits there

Interior OL is just an investment problem - when they've invested capital there, they've got good returns - they've just decided to go cheap there which i don't disagree with in principle at all - they just need to be picking better guys in R3-7 at that spot

At OLB, I agree. Though I think the market place is generally flush with these veteran types. We've churned through them well in the last few years, and this year, we didn't.

At interior Oline, I do think there's a "mid-tier" group of veterans that are seemingly available every year. The Kevin Zeitler's of the world. 30-35 years old, still decent players. Can usually get them for $10M or less. Even if that's a position where you have to go the pass rusher route, which is that every other year you're swapping out mid-tier veterans for mid-tier veterans, that's not the end of the world.

Which again circles back to IF you start looking to do a roster rebuild, especially on D, is TE a position where you want to spend $15M a year on? I'm at least partially happy that fans are starting to realize that all these nice, shiny toys (skill position players) are wonderful for a QB, but if you're not at least average up front, you're just going to end up like Joe Burrow at the end of the day.

 

[rossihunter2]

I don't think swinging and missing is the problem because that happens to every single team and every single GM. I think the bigger problem is seeing the issues and not doing anything to address them. I'm not a Faalele hater by any means but the fact that he and Vorhees were essentially just handed the jobs is a problem. And on the DL, everyone knew we had Madubuike, Jones, and a bunch of nothing after that. Our solution to that was 36 year old John Jenkins.

where was the john simpson type signing this year to at least challenge a guy like vorhees
faalele's only competition was from the same guy he beat out last year in ben cleveland...

we signed noteboom

but we could have signed someone similar at guard... Dalton Risner, Will Hernandez, Teven Jenkins - not guys who are going to definitely win a job but vets who can 100% factor into a competition and give you a floor at the position

and that obviously doesn't include drafting someone high

the hope for late this year (but more likely next year) is that Emery Jones factors into your OG battle at one of the spots
i think this year is a great example of the old adage that if you're not progressing, you're regressing (the exact same reason you add a piece like DHop even though the receiver room felt good last year)

 

[rossihunter2]

I think in an offense where you want to run the ball, and have Flowers and Bateman, TE will start seeing less targets.
It's less to do with Likely as a player and more to do with the fact that the Ravens seem to be able to find quality TE play at will in the middle rounds of the draft. So if there's a position where I can get somebody viable in mid rounds, and pay next to nothing for it, I'm doing that.

Plus its just the overall premise of "what's the fix"? If people think firing John is the only thing that needs to happen, so be it. I'm suggesting we could easily see wholesale personnel changes if this season continues down the toilet. In which case I'm not sure there's really that many guys who are "I've got to bring him back" on a team that's picking early in the draft.

the problem with those TEs is they don't become immediate impact starters straight away and we're losing the entire TE group this offseason if we don't retain them - which would suggest that they're pretty keen to retain at least 1 of them...

but the fact that there's no one coming down the pipe and they didn't take a peak at any of the TEs in a pretty deep class means that you don't really have anything at TE next year unless you retain someone or you get extremely lucky in the draft

 

[rossihunter2]

Especially when we had the majority of this defense from 2023 when we looked insanely competent.

this is the real killer for me
we've lost stephens (and unfortunately washington to injury)
we've replaced them with starks, awuzie and alexander

that in theory shouldn't be that difficult to integrate into your existing very successful defence

chris board and malik harrison surely cannot be that important to your defensive system that it all falls apart with them

the players are the same, so unless they've regressed massively (which tbf is certainly possible with how they've been playing) this has to be something systemic that's not working... also the fact that no one's playing well on this defence suggests it's systemic also

 

[rossihunter2]

It's wild and I genuinely don't know what to make of it.

It's seemingly complex because these guys have no idea what they're supposed to be doing or where the ball is going and they can't stop a thing.

But then it's also vanilla as fuck because the schemed pressure (or lack thereof) is so obvious to spot 95% of the time.

I just cannot figure out responsibilities for the life of me. You have what looks like basic looks but then you have guys dropping to zones that are so far from what the standard look is. I've legit seen a LBer in what looked like cover 4 drop all the way to the deep boundary and I don't know if that's purposeful or a player just messing up that badly. But it's consistent enough to see those weird looks that it feels purposeful.

i havent looked that deep into the all-22 to see what's going on
but if that's really what's happening then it almost feels like Orr's trying to imitate Macdonald's defence which was predicated on showing different looks pre and post-snap but without any of the fundamentals behind what made macdonald's defence work (simple playcalls, inventive ways of teaching pressures, mixing up coverages, sound fundamentals)

just feels like there's nothing sound in this defence right now to allow for us to do anything creative but we're trying anyway

 

[rossihunter2]

The zone coverage is also incredibly soft even when it is basic. CBs playing like 10 yards off and dropping to a deep zone. LBs trying to get out to cover the flats but the tape is obvious and teams are attacking that by hitting WRs quickly. It's almost a guaranteed 5 yards. Then you add the tackling issues and you can add on to that easily.

that type of stuff tbf is set by the players

and it's understandable when you've got backups in that they would feel like they need more of a cushion

 

[rossihunter2]

Mike MacDonald was highly likely getting input from Harbaugh, Anthony Weaver and Anthony Lynn. Can't forget Chris Hewitt as well given that he was the passing game coordinator that year in 2023. Maybe just maybe Zach Orr just not ready yet or maybe he is ready but just still learning .

dennard wilson too

 

[Grim]

Mike MacDonald was highly likely getting input from Harbaugh, Anthony Weaver and Anthony Lynn. Can't forget Chris Hewitt as well given that he was the passing game coordinator that year in 2023. Maybe just maybe Zach Orr just not ready yet or maybe he is ready but just still learning .

That can be true at the same time as my point being valid. If someone like Orr cannot discern between the input when it conflicts and tries to do too much then you have a situation that can lead to confusion. Orr should be able to decipher the input and decide what to keep and what to discard. If he doesn’t then the players may end up being confused and fundamentals may suffer. It at least explains to me how we would look so different.

 

[Simba]

that type of stuff tbf is set by the players

and it's understandable when you've got backups in that they would feel like they need more of a cushion

And definitely understood, but you feel like it's death by a thousand paper cuts at this point. The problem persists - gotta change it up. If the players aren't comfortable, then someone isn't doing their job.

 

[rossihunter2]

At OLB, I agree. Though I think the market place is generally flush with these veteran types. We've churned through them well in the last few years, and this year, we didn't.

At interior Oline, I do think there's a "mid-tier" group of veterans that are seemingly available every year. The Kevin Zeitler's of the world. 30-35 years old, still decent players. Can usually get them for $10M or less. Even if that's a position where you have to go the pass rusher route, which is that every other year you're swapping out mid-tier veterans for mid-tier veterans, that's not the end of the world.

Which again circles back to IF you start looking to do a roster rebuild, especially on D, is TE a position where you want to spend $15M a year on? I'm at least partially happy that fans are starting to realize that all these nice, shiny toys (skill position players) are wonderful for a QB, but if you're not at least average up front, you're just going to end up like Joe Burrow at the end of the day.

if you could find a kevin zeitler every time then i think that's a great shout
but there's no guarantee of solid play from those sub-10m IOL:

Becton's been fine at 10m/yr
Zeitler (as per usual) has been great at 9m (1 year)
James Daniels has been on I/R at 8m/yr
Alex Cappa has been a disaster at 5.5m/yr
Laken Tomlinson has been rotated in and out at 4.25m/yr
Robert Jones is on I/R (but was only going to be depth anyway) at 3.75m/yr

and below that you're looking at guys in the range the ravens normally look at anyway

and i think that's why they normally shop in that range, because the likelihood of finding a solid vet at 3m or less seems to be not that much worse than when you fork out more money

if you look at the 2024 signings it's a bad list at IOL outside of the two Ravens guards: zeitler and simpson are the only two mid-level signings where teams probably don't have any buyer's remorse... and again if you go down to the 3m range you see Ben Bredeson who played himself into a big extension this year

the OL free agency market is fraught with danger

tbh the top of the free agency market in general is not a place you really want to be shopping

 

[rossihunter2]

And definitely understood, but you feel like it's death by a thousand paper cuts at this point. The problem persists - gotta change it up. If the players aren't comfortable, then someone isn't doing their job.

nate wiggins got beat a few times on Sunday but at least it looked like he was a tough beat in coverage - and iirc it was only nico collins who beat him (who's easily one of the top 6 elite WRs in the NFL... sidenote, we're playing against another one of those top 6 this week in Puka Nacua)

TJ Tampa feels like he's just occupying space on the field by comparison to wiggins

keyon martin has a tough job in the nickel setting his depth because it's tough to man-up in the slot with no cushion to work from

 

[Grim]

B

this is the real killer for me
we've lost stephens (and unfortunately washington to injury)
we've replaced them with starks, awuzie and alexander

that in theory shouldn't be that difficult to integrate into your existing very successful defence

chris board and malik harrison surely cannot be that important to your defensive system that it all falls apart with them

the players are the same, so unless they've regressed massively (which tbf is certainly possible with how they've been playing) this has to be something systemic that's not working... also the fact that no one's playing well on this defence suggests it's systemic also

Michael Pierce was a huge loss

 

[rmcjacket23]

if you could find a kevin zeitler every time then i think that's a great shout
but there's no guarantee of solid play from those sub-10m IOL:

Becton's been fine at 10m/yr
Zeitler (as per usual) has been great at 9m (1 year)
James Daniels has been on I/R at 8m/yr
Alex Cappa has been a disaster at 5.5m/yr
Laken Tomlinson has been rotated in and out at 4.25m/yr
Robert Jones is on I/R (but was only going to be depth anyway) at 3.75m/yr

and below that you're looking at guys in the range the ravens normally look at anyway

and i think that's why they normally shop in that range, because the likelihood of finding a solid vet at 3m or less seems to be not that much worse than when you fork out more money

if you look at the 2024 signings it's a bad list at IOL outside of the two Ravens guards: zeitler and simpson are the only two mid-level signings where teams probably don't have any buyer's remorse... and again if you go down to the 3m range you see Ben Bredeson who played himself into a big extension this year

the OL free agency market is fraught with danger

tbh the top of the free agency market in general is not a place you really want to be shopping

Right, but then the question becomes... if I'm paying Likely $15M, would I be better off spending $15M on a Guard? Which one of those two positions do I feel more confident I can replace in the middle rounds of the draft? Historically, I'd say that's TE.

OR, if I really want to prioritize the Dline... am I sure spending $20M on Travis Jones (honestly not sure what his market value will be, so throwing a decent number out there) rather than $15M on Likely? I think its pretty clear that between Jones, Linderbaum, and Likely, at least one of them is probably gone.

If I let Jones walk, I have no idea if Mads will be back. Meaning quite literally my entire Dline is turned over. If I let Linderbaum walk, I may be looking at replacing literally all three interior starters on the Oline (Faalele is a FA and Vorhees apparently sucks).

And if I let Likely walk, I have no TEs on the roster, though I can probably retain Kolar for cheapish.

One of those departures is going to have a gigantic impact on that position group. So then it becomes the question of which of those positions do you value the most, and which one the least? My vote for least would be TE, based on replaceability.

 

[rossihunter2]

B

Michael Pierce was a huge loss

if for nothing else, then purely for vibes

he was clearly the real glue holding this defence together

 

[Grim]

if for nothing else, then purely for vibes

he was clearly the real glue holding this defence together

It’s crazy but yeah. Both in man size (lol) and in impact, he seems to have been the piece we couldn’t replace. I really believe Madubuike could’ve helped our line a lot but losing Pierce and him really has left a gaping hole.

 

[rossihunter2]

It’s crazy but yeah. Both in man size (lol) and in impact, he seems to have been the piece we couldn’t replace. I really believe Madubuike could’ve helped our line a lot but losing Pierce and him really has left a gaping hole.

and tbf we've been missing a healthy travis jones too

 

[gtalk12]

Right, but then the question becomes... if I'm paying Likely $15M, would I be better off spending $15M on a Guard? Which one of those two positions do I feel more confident I can replace in the middle rounds of the draft? Historically, I'd say that's TE.

OR, if I really want to prioritize the Dline... am I sure spending $20M on Travis Jones (honestly not sure what his market value will be, so throwing a decent number out there) rather than $15M on Likely? I think its pretty clear that between Jones, Linderbaum, and Likely, at least one of them is probably gone.

If I let Jones walk, I have no idea if Mads will be back. Meaning quite literally my entire Dline is turned over. If I let Linderbaum walk, I may be looking at replacing literally all three interior starters on the Oline (Faalele is a FA and Vorhees apparently sucks).

And if I let Likely walk, I have no TEs on the roster, though I can probably retain Kolar for cheapish.

One of those departures is going to have a gigantic impact on that position group. So then it becomes the question of which of those positions do you value the most, and which one the least? My vote for least would be TE, based on replaceability.

The answer is almost always the trenches. Unless we find another Kevin Z in free agency we need to bolster up that line bc at this point we won't be able to run the ball AGAIN no matter who is back there without a healthy Lamar having to carry that department as well.

The focus should be on Travis and Lindy are the priority or at least SHOULD be the priority imo

 

[redrum52]

What the fuck are we doing

 

[Ellicottraven]

Are you on Twitter with this same photo lol

Yes, sir! Please follow me. No one but my son seems to care to follow me. Also, please let folks know that of the 400 odd people Lamar Jackson follows, I am one!

There is this telepathic love and regard we share for each other. I can bet you he thinks of me as the father he wants, but cannot have because of his stubborn and domineering mom!

 

[gtalk12]

Yes, sir! Please follow me. No one but my son seems to care to follow me.

I sent you a message quote on there