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The Embarrassment, the Blowout and the Coaching

I really don’t think Zach Orr has a clue what he’s doing. He played LB for a few years, and then coached LBs for a few years. Unless he was a SUPREMELY high iq player who understood what every defender was doing and how to compensate for it, and understood what offenses and play callers were doing, then I don’t even see where he could’ve gained the knowledge to scheme and playcall a nfl defense. And I really don’t think he was that player. We all had the same thoughts on Orr as a LB, he chases the guy with the ball and tackles them well, he wasn’t exactly intuitive or instinctive. Not to say he’s not a smart guy or a competent positional coach, but we had these exact fears when we hired him and it’s all turned out to be exactly the case, he just isn’t experienced in coaching enough to call an entire defense at this level.
I’m not going to sit here and pretend like last year was a defensive masterclass or anything, but he adjusted well to the struggles and found a way to put those guys in position to play competent ball down the stretch.

This year just feels like such a stark departure from that and that’s what confuses me so much. It’s almost unrecognizable from last year and I cannot fathom why that’s the case.
 
I’m not going to sit here and pretend like last year was a defensive masterclass or anything, but he adjusted well to the struggles and found a way to put those guys in position to play competent ball down the stretch.

This year just feels like such a stark departure from that and that’s what confuses me so much. It’s almost unrecognizable from last year and I cannot fathom why that’s the case.
What exactly did Orr do though? What adjustments did he actually make last year? And why can they not be applied to this defense?

I think BK, Travis jones, oweh, and van noy just balled out and ardarius/hamilton solidified the back end, I’m not even sure any real adjustments were made by Orr. Now BK is out, the others are either out or not playing as well, and the “scheme” is now exposed. Where in the past, guys would go down and the scheme was strong enough to remain competitive, when we lose guys now we go from bad to historically all-time bad.

A competent and experienced DC wouldn’t have saved us these last 2 weeks, but a competent and experienced DC could have prevented 177 points in five fucking weeks lol
 
I really don’t think Zach Orr has a clue what he’s doing. He played LB for a few years, and then coached LBs for a few years. Unless he was a SUPREMELY high iq player who understood what every defender was doing and how to compensate for it, and understood what offenses and play callers were doing, then I don’t even see where he could’ve gained the knowledge to scheme and playcall a nfl defense. And I really don’t think he was that player. We all had the same thoughts on Orr as a LB, he chases the guy with the ball and tackles them well, he wasn’t exactly intuitive or instinctive. Not to say he’s not a smart guy or a competent positional coach, but we had these exact fears when we hired him and it’s all turned out to be exactly the case, he just isn’t experienced in coaching enough to call an entire defense at this level.
Of all the possible in-house candidates, our idiot HC chose the worst one.
 
I wonder if Mike Mac played 4d chess and never even considered bringing Zach Orr with him to Seattle.

I just really wanna know what they saw in Orr to think he could handle this job.
Maybe not, he would be able to mentor him. Who is he going to learn from in Baltimore? Ah, Pees, they talk a lot on the phone.
 
Finally brought myself to watch the game. Man in the 4th quarter on that 47 yard pass to Kirk, there were 4 of our guys covering one Texan WR. Good lord.
 
What exactly did Orr do though? What adjustments did he actually make last year? And why can they not be applied to this defense?

I think BK, Travis jones, oweh, and van noy just balled out and ardarius/hamilton solidified the back end, I’m not even sure any real adjustments were made by Orr. Now BK is out, the others are either out or not playing as well, and the “scheme” is now exposed. Where in the past, guys would go down and the scheme was strong enough to remain competitive, when we lose guys now we go from bad to historically all-time bad.

A competent and experienced DC wouldn’t have saved us these last 2 weeks, but a competent and experienced DC could have prevented 177 points in five fucking weeks lol
Yeah I think he did. Think he simplified what the ask was of players and think he was able to scheme some pressure. Again, not saying we’re talking about some world beating defense, but the play calling and scheme was solid enough for the most part.

Feel like there’s some weird attempt to add a wrinkle this year and it’s just a complete failure.
 
Maybe too many chefs in the kitchen. I’ve heard they’re getting input from Pees, Pagano, Orr and I guess Harbaugh himself. Could be many voices and may explain this confusion we see from the players
 
Liam Cohen a rookie Head Coach just beat the same team that demolished us. Bye bye Harbaugh and the rest of the Coaching staff.
Thats not the first time the chiefs lost to a rookie head coach . The same thing happened in 2023 against the raiders . They still went to the super bowl any way and I think they won as well. In all reality it's still early in the season . Not really wise to compare other teams accomplishments currently
 
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Maybe too many chefs in the kitchen. I’ve heard they’re getting input from Pees, Pagano, Orr and I guess Harbaugh himself. Could be many voices and may explain this confusion we see from the players

Mike MacDonald was highly likely getting input from Harbaugh, Anthony Weaver and Anthony Lynn. Can't forget Chris Hewitt as well given that he was the passing game coordinator that year in 2023. Maybe just maybe Zach Orr just not ready yet or maybe he is ready but just still learning .
 
Mike MacDonald was highly likely getting input from Harbaugh, Anthony Weaver and Anthony Lynn. Can't forget Chris Hewitt as well given that he was the passing game coordinator that year in 2023. Maybe just maybe Zach Orr just not ready yet or maybe he is ready but just still learning .
When you have a SB potential squad, is not the time for on the job training. They brought in Pees to help him then Pagano. If he needs this much help, he shouldn't be the DC.
Are they really going to squander another season of Lamars prime by experimenting with a coordinator who's clearly innover his head.
 
I’m not going to sit here and pretend like last year was a defensive masterclass or anything, but he adjusted well to the struggles and found a way to put those guys in position to play competent ball down the stretch.

This year just feels like such a stark departure from that and that’s what confuses me so much. It’s almost unrecognizable from last year and I cannot fathom why that’s the case.
Naw, we played some bad offenses and rookie qb down the stretch last season..we played steelers twice, broncos, chargers, giants, and browns. Bengals till put up 31 on us. I guess you can say texans was a good game since they only scored 2 points.
 
Naw, we played some bad offenses and rookie qb down the stretch last season..we played steelers twice, broncos, chargers, giants, and browns. Bengals till put up 31 on us. I guess you can say texans was a good game since they only scored 2 points.
That's not the point. It's the scheme and philosophy. It is night and day from last year to what we're seeing now.
 
Naw, we played some bad offenses and rookie qb down the stretch last season..we played steelers twice, broncos, chargers, giants, and browns. Bengals till put up 31 on us. I guess you can say texans was a good game since they only scored 2 points.
Don't think this argument really holds though. They dominated Josh Allen early in the year. Even some of the games where they gave up a bunch of yards late, they still largely dominated large segments of the game. They held Jayden Daniels to 13 points in three quarters. They held Dak Prescott to 6 points in three quarters.

Last years defense just a) gave up too many big plays, especially late in games, and b) gave up a ton of yardage, and sometimes points, once they got a big lead.

There was really only three games where the D was total ass for pretty much the entirety... Bengals x2, and the first Browns game. Beyond that, even in the "bad games", the D was pretty average at worst.
 
Don't think this argument really holds though. They dominated Josh Allen early in the year. Even some of the games where they gave up a bunch of yards late, they still largely dominated large segments of the game. They held Jayden Daniels to 13 points in three quarters. They held Dak Prescott to 6 points in three quarters.

Last years defense just a) gave up too many big plays, especially late in games, and b) gave up a ton of yardage, and sometimes points, once they got a big lead.

There was really only three games where the D was total ass for pretty much the entirety... Bengals x2, and the first Browns game. Beyond that, even in the "bad games", the D was pretty average at worst.
Im talking about our last few games of last year were vs some bad offenses that it made it seem like we were actually good.. also, the whole entire year, we werent really getting pressure… wasnt no real scheme nor disguises. From the jump, you could tell the defense wasnt good or even avg.
 
That's not the point. It's the scheme and philosophy. It is night and day from last year to what we're seeing now.
To me, there was never a real scheme nor philosophy.. maybe a “ see ball get ball” or “ attack the ball” but other than that i never seen nor noticed anything. Pass rush sucks and sucked last year yet we never really saw guys being schemed up to get sacks. Blitz 5-6 and all them getting picked up. Down the stretch last season our secondary maybe looked tighter with adarius always being around the ball and in position but i doubt he the reason why we ass. We still often move jmad around the dline before injury.. yea idk, i see nothing different from last year really..

Maybe teams are just doing what bills did second half and stopped wasting downs on 1st and 2nd and just pick us apart due to our weak pass rush and zone cvg
 
To me, there was never a real scheme nor philosophy.. maybe a “ see ball get ball” or “ attack the ball” but other than that i never seen nor noticed anything. Pass rush sucks and sucked last year yet we never really saw guys being schemed up to get sacks. Blitz 5-6 and all them getting picked up. Down the stretch last season our secondary maybe looked tighter with adarius always being around the ball and in position but i doubt he the reason why we ass. We still often move jmad around the dline before injury.. yea idk, i see nothing different from last year really..

Maybe teams are just doing what bills did second half and stopped wasting downs on 1st and 2nd and just pick us apart due to our weak pass rush and zone cvg
There was a very clear philosophy last year - disguised zone reads that required discipline. The problem early in the year was that the guys weren’t disciplined and it opened us up to big plays. I think you saw us switch guys out and also simplify some things for the players and that helped.

The zone philosophy remains there this year but (a) the disguise is almost non-existent and (b) some of the zone responsibilities seemingly make no sense on tape.

Last year was guys making mistakes and losing their battles. This year is that plus also mass confusion on who should be doing what and telegraphed pressure.
 
Im talking about our last few games of last year were vs some bad offenses that it made it seem like we were actually good.. also, the whole entire year, we werent really getting pressure… wasnt no real scheme nor disguises. From the jump, you could tell the defense wasnt good or even avg.
Right but I'm saying that doesn't matter. It was inconsistency of the D. We played really well against high end offenses, and also shit the bed against some. We played really well against crappy offenses, and also shit the bed against some.

Plus in the AFC, even in the playoffs, there really weren't any high-end offenses. BUF, KC, HOU, PIT weren't scare offenses last year (or really even this year).
 
I frankly have no issues with how we've approached first round picks, or what we've done with the secondary.

For me, it comes down to understanding your organizational strengths/weaknesses, and most importantly, understanding which positions you can without high end players and which one's you can't. It's not universal of course, but it's not overly hard.

The main questions are around positional value. Was paying $20M/yr to an off-ball linebacker the best use of financial resources? As good as he was last year, there's questions about whether giving $15M/yr to a 30 year old RB is a good use of financial resources. You could question whether paying $13M on a 5th year option to an OLB who doesn't have a strong track record of getting to the QB is a good use of financial resources. Was $11M for Mark Andrews a good use of financial resources?

I think if you looked league wide, off-ball linebackers and RBs are two positions that a lot of teams simply go "cheap" on, because most running games live or die by the Olineman in front of them, not a lot of teams can run the ball well anyway (making off-ball LB play less important), teams run a lot more Nickel/Dime packages than ever, which takes off-ball LBs off the field, and most of them can't cover anyway.

I think even if you look at the EDC era, I think our draft strengths are in the secondary and at TE, meaning I feel better about our ability to draft and develop players in those groups than I would paying for them. I actually think our Dline work has been pretty good, especially in run D, though its hard to find premier interior rushers where we typically draft.

Where we are clearly weak, draft-wise, is on outside pass rushers and interior Oline. We've struggled in that area for a long time now. That, in my opinion, means we should prioritize those positions via FA or via trade markets. The latter we've done some of, the former we've done very little of.

i think LB is 100% a position that's low value... unless you have one of the elite 3-down guys like Fred Warner
and i think it's fair that when we paid Roquan, we thought he was in that group of guys, unfortunately he's not played that way since

RB I agree with entirely - the reason Henry was the cheapest of the guys who got paid last offseason (other than his age) was that he's not a guy who creates for himself and he's not a net positive on 3rd downs - i'm not saying i don't like the signing - but i am saying the extension seems funky and unnecessary to me - we gave him a ton of new guarantees and a big raise

What i would say about outside pass rusher is this:
the whole league struggles to draft those guys, especially outside of the top 20 (tbh more like top 10) - the ravens used to be good at finding guys who were good enough to be solid starters/complementary guys in day 3 at that spot to support an elite EDGE like Suggs or Dumervil (or both) and Ngata inside... it's notable that the pass rusher conveyor belt slowed and stopped when sizzle finally left

the problem with investing at pass rusher and IOL in free agency is... again that most teams have the same needs and most teams are struggling to fill those spots which means those guys get way overpaid if they're available

and there's not many drafts that have a TJ Watt who's available in the 20s, and while everyone hopes they've drafted Nik Bonitto on day 2, there's not many hits there

Interior OL is just an investment problem - when they've invested capital there, they've got good returns - they've just decided to go cheap there which i don't disagree with in principle at all - they just need to be picking better guys in R3-7 at that spot
 
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