The Embarrassment, the Blowout and the Coaching

[rossihunter2]

Yep. This isn't to excuse it, but I think I saw every single young guy bite on something out there that they shouldn't have. Unfortunately when that's the entirety of the defense, there's no cover for those mistakes. They compound and we get railroaded like we did today.

it also means that (especially in man/zone) it hides when guys put good reps on films

 

[UPennChem]

And I don't disagree with that. I've been spouting all offseason and before we got to see it come to life that I don't know how we watched the Eagles bully their way to a SB win and said nah, we'll add an injured 3rd round pick on OL and a late 6th round pick on DL and said we were good. I think that's a failure, and EDC is accountable for that.

With that being said, he has far too much of a track record for me to say he deserves to lose a job over this. He's drafted and signed far more hits than misses in recent years, relative to draft position and cost of course.

To me, this is where he sinks or swims. You've seen the issues from a roster construction standpoint and it's obvious. I think he deserves the opportunity to correct that heading into next season.

This is right. But if he doesnt wake up and adapt, then he's a stuck in his way idiot that needs to go. But I believe he's talented enough to do the job, but he's gotta evolve.

 

[UPennChem]

I'm conflicted on EDC. I don't think he's a bad GM, and I hope he stays.

My problem is... if it's just coaching, shouldn't we just get rid of Harbaugh next year and run it back again with some upgrades? If so, not only do I not think that's what's going to happen, I'd be shocked by it. I think there will be a pretty good amount of turnover in personnel, especially on D. I'm not sure Marlon returns. I'm not sure even Roquan returns. You're obviously going to lose Oweh, Van Noy, possibly Jones, and pretty much all of your secondary depth. If Madubuike doesn't come back, you could functionally see literally an entire new Dline and OLB group.

I think if you're in the camp that the way the roster is constructed is in some ways "backwards", i.e. building from back to front, rather than front to back. that's like 90% EDC. That's how he envisions roster construction. He's the one that hasn't prioritized pass rushers or Oline (interior at least) nearly enough, and he's the one that will spend huge capital on ILB, Safety, and even RB.

If you think that's not how you build a roster, then he either needs a dramatic change in philosophy himself, or he needs to go also.

THANK YOU

 

[rossihunter2]

I think Todd needs everything to ge perfect. If he gets that, he may be very good but he may also make you scratch your head. If it isn't perfect, he looks lost. I can't call that very good. That seems extremely pedestrian.

I just dont agree with EDC. You know why. You've read everything before.

nah todd doesn't need everything to be perfect at all and he's shown he can design effective and explosive offences in multiple different ways with completely different personnel strengths

you're saying that the offence, that was the highest scoring in the league on a per game basis through 4 weeks was perfect? that doesn't ring true to me... it wasn't the 2024 offence but it still led the league in scoring and explosives

 

[Simba]

This is right. But if he doesnt wake up and adapt, then he's a stuck in his way idiot that needs to go. But I believe he's talented enough to do the job, but he's gotta evolve.

This to me seems like the year of aggression. The BPA mantra makes sense but sometimes when you sit there and take what you get, you end up too deep at some positions year over year and too weak at others. If there's an opportunity to address the trenches and you're a few picks away and are feeling antsy about getting the guy, go fucking get him and don't leave it to chance. I've heard far too many guys we've missed on because we've been patient. That's what I think needs to change the most - we can identify talent, now go get the talent that fills on obvious hole instead of taking the leftovers.

 

[rmcjacket23]

This to me seems like the year of aggression. The BPA mantra makes sense but sometimes when you sit there and take what you get, you end up too deep at some positions year over year and too weak at others. If there's an opportunity to address the trenches and you're a few picks away and are feeling antsy about getting the guy, go fucking get him and don't leave it to chance. I've heard far too many guys we've missed on because we've been patient. That's what I think needs to change the most - we can identify talent, now go get the talent that fills on obvious hole instead of taking the leftovers.

I'd be highly interested in what the offseason looks like IF they think the roster needs wholesale changes. Especially if you get a Lamar extension done early (not a given at this point though), and you cut some older guys (Marlon, Roquan), cap space could be at a premium. We're talking $50-60M or more. Not something we've really had much of. You can very much be big-time players in FA or trade markets if you're that flush.

But I think it just comes down to how do you evaluate these failures? Is it coaching only, or is it wholesale personnel changes needed?

I'd also be the guy asking questions like are we sure Linderbaum, and for certain, Likely, are guys worth keeping? Maybe Travis Jones is a bigger priority? TE specifically is a position we can seemingly draft at will and replace with quality players. I don't view Likely as a Kelce-level player, so I'm not sure if it makes sense to spend $15M a year or whatever it is on a position that you have a track record of drafting and developing well.

Seems logical that you should start buying positions you're struggling with. Namely, interior Oline and outside pass rushers. Two areas we've struggled to draft and develop recently.

 

[redrum52]

I know everyone is fired up about the coaching, and rightfully so. But the heavy changes y'all want simply aren't happening.

Orr and some of the positional coaches under him are probably most at risk, and I guess there's a world where they look at the OL too.

But firing Harbaugh midseason is most likely not going to happen.

Your options would then be...
- Chuck Pagano, who may end up taking the defensive reigns
- Chris Horton, who everyone hates how his unit is performing
- Todd Monken, who has issues but the track record suggests you probably don't want to put him in a lame duck situation
- Willie Taggart, who is not a good coach

Can't forget that you can't just bring in new faces midseason. Firing guys means other guys step up and take on interim roles. Doing a large restructure like some are calling for is basically impossible.

^ Difference being if Bisciotti is embarrassed and makes the call. I don't have much insight into his thought process from my guy obviously, but he's much more likely to tell Harbaugh to make a change than make the change on Harbaugh directly if history is any indication. This is obviously a situation that could surprise but it just feels extremely unlikely.

Steve not stepping in. Orr is basically just waiting for the announcement. Harbaugh will make it to the offseason. I don't see the team becoming a franchise that just cans someone in season under Bisciotti unless there's a lot going on behind the scenes. I'm in south Florida. Trust me when's I say there is no scenario where we want Taggert as our HC lol.

Move on Orr now. Rip the bandaid off swiftly and keep it moving cause can it really get worse? At least then we get a start on the changes with the bye week after.

 

[rossihunter2]

If ravens get a top 5 picks, we we want boys?

not looked at the top guys yet but...
i've heard peter woods is awesome

 

[UPennChem]

nah todd doesn't need everything to be perfect at all and he's shown he can design effective and explosive offences in multiple different ways with completely different personnel strengths

you're saying that the offence, that was the highest scoring in the league on a per game basis through 4 weeks was perfect? that doesn't ring true to me... it wasn't the 2024 offence but it still led the league in scoring and explosives

There's plenty of Todd being completely clueless. Across seasons. And primarily in the playoffs. I just hard disagree. Lamar covers up for so much of his BS it's ridiculous. And when there's just any amount of pressure being applied by the defense, Todd has nothing to put Lamar in a good spot. He just let's us lose

 

[Simba]

I'd be highly interested in what the offseason looks like IF they think the roster needs wholesale changes. Especially if you get a Lamar extension done early (not a given at this point though), and you cut some older guys (Marlon, Roquan), cap space could be at a premium. We're talking $50-60M or more. Not something we've really had much of. You can very much be big-time players in FA or trade markets if you're that flush.

But I think it just comes down to how do you evaluate these failures? Is it coaching only, or is it wholesale personnel changes needed?

Probably a combo of both to some extent. I think there are some guys on this team not playing up to the level that we’ve seen and know they should be playing up to, and there are other guys that are just not who they once were.

Good news as you alluded to is that a bulk of the underperformers are either heading toward FA or carry cap savings if we choose to move on.

There will be a lot of work to do - OL, TE, and maybe RB on offense. Pretty much everywhere but S on defense. Just gotta make sure you get the right answers on defense as to which guys are done vs. which guys are being impacted by coaching, which is also why I think that coaching move is necessary. The philosophy is so horrid right now that I don’t know if you can reasonably tell who falls into what category based on tape alone.

 

[rossihunter2]

Pass rushers ain't just gonna come falling from the sky, but if there's one opportunity to shake up the roster to try to get better, it's there. KVN looks to be coming back into his own. Tavius is good for what he is. Green has had moments but it's been a struggle. Oweh has been nothing. Ojabo is probably a top 3 guy to get cut when we need a spot.

Elevate a guy like Rucker or Hamm and see if you can get a spark. If you sign Drake Jackson, see how quickly he can get up to speed. Just feel like if there's a position where we need to try something, it's there.

If it wasn't for the current injury situation, I think I'd also be open to signing Eric Kendricks at ILB and just give him a 53 spot.

just makes not signing jadeveon clowney for 3.5m a missed opportunity that everyone could see coming

 

[Simba]

just makes not signing jadeveon clowney for 3.5m a missed opportunity that everyone could see coming

I'm still not hurt on the Clowney thing, but I understand I'm in the minority. They did not want to take snaps away from Mike Green and felt he'd have been the one most impacted by another veteran signing.

With the benefit of hindsight, I think you'd now take him because neither Green nor Oweh have done much worthwhile to this point. But at the time, they thought they had a strong top 4. Didn't work out that way unfortunately.

 

[rossihunter2]

I know everyone is fired up about the coaching, and rightfully so. But the heavy changes y'all want simply aren't happening.

Orr and some of the positional coaches under him are probably most at risk, and I guess there's a world where they look at the OL too.

But firing Harbaugh midseason is most likely not going to happen.

Your options would then be...
- Chuck Pagano, who may end up taking the defensive reigns
- Chris Horton, who everyone hates how his unit is performing
- Todd Monken, who has issues but the track record suggests you probably don't want to put him in a lame duck situation
- Willie Taggart, who is not a good coach

Can't forget that you can't just bring in new faces midseason. Firing guys means other guys step up and take on interim roles. Doing a large restructure like some are calling for is basically impossible.

i think the only coaching change you could see midseason (if you do see one at all) is Orr getting fired

but at the end of the season, all bets are off...
John Harbaugh's in danger and if the HC's in danger then the whole staff is in danger of having the house cleaned
but even if Harbs stays, you have to think that Warhop and some of the defensive position coaches are in real danger
especially as this year (of all years) the coaching staff has a bunch of nepotism in it: Willie Taggart, Chuck Pagano, Matt Pees (Dean's son)

 

[rossihunter2]

DeCosta should not be at risk. This team is too talented for that to be the case, even though they're injured or not playing like it right now. I get the concerns about the allocation of resources and he certainly shoulders some of the blame for the struggles, but I'm not overlooking everything else.

On the coaching front, it really feels like this team could benefit from someone who's done this before in order to keep the window open as long as we can. A young first timer is the new and shiny thing, but that usually takes some time to build. What this team needs most right now is discipline and focus on the fundamentals. Brian Flores seems like the perfect guy on paper right now but we'll see where the rest of the season leads.

we're talking about the guy who's built multiple rosters that have been the 1 seed in the AFC over the last 6 years, has assembled a team full of stars and all-pros and consistently finds good depth from day 3 in the draft, undrafted free agency and the veteran cast-off market...

this is also the same guy who's consistently gone hard at fixing the roster issues we've had in his tenure...

responded to the shitshow OL of 2021 with acquisitions of Morgan Moses, Tyler Linderbaum and Daniel Faalele
responded to the weak WR room of 2022 with Zay Flowers, Odell Beckham and Nelson Agholor (even after having spent 2 1st rounders on WRs the previous 4 drafts)

he consistently gives young guys a chance to hit, and then quickly reacts from all angles available when they don't

 

[rossihunter2]

And I don't disagree with that. I've been spouting all offseason and before we got to see it come to life that I don't know how we watched the Eagles bully their way to a SB win and said nah, we'll add an injured 3rd round pick on OL and a late 6th round pick on DL and said we were good. I think that's a failure, and EDC is accountable for that.

With that being said, he has far too much of a track record for me to say he deserves to lose a job over this. He's drafted and signed far more hits than misses in recent years, relative to draft position and cost of course.

To me, this is where he sinks or swims. You've seen the issues from a roster construction standpoint and it's obvious. I think he deserves the opportunity to correct that heading into next season.

i also think people are attributing a bunch of what's happened in the draft this offseason as intentioned...

i'm sure they'd have loved to draft a DT and we know from tyler's source that we know they really wanted to draft an IOL in the 1st round this year - you can't draft guys that don't exist

starks isn't who i'd want but there's a reason you draft BPA vs need and over time that method has always come out on top - and that's also how you end up with mike green in R2, a guy that some people wanted in R1 (and how disappointed would they be with that outcome now)

 

[Dom McRaven]

nah todd doesn't need everything to be perfect at all and he's shown he can design effective and explosive offences in multiple different ways with completely different personnel strengths

you're saying that the offence, that was the highest scoring in the league on a per game basis through 4 weeks was perfect? that doesn't ring true to me... it wasn't the 2024 offence but it still led the league in scoring and explosives

There's plenty of Todd being completely clueless. Across seasons. And primarily in the playoffs. I just hard disagree. Lamar covers up for so much of his BS it's ridiculous. And when there's just any amount of pressure being applied by the defense, Todd has nothing to put Lamar in a good spot. He just let's us lose

Take McVay for example. For as bright as he is, he too has some questionable situational play-calling as we look no further than the ending of their game against SF. Matter of fact, when we played them in 2023, they were KILLING us on the ground on their first drive. Then they get to the RZ and pass it 3 straight times and had to settle for a FG.

With Todd, you have to take the good with the bad. I won't disagree with you, UPC, on Todd being clueless at times. However, when he was hired in 2023, it was clear that he was working with Lamar closely to bring the best out of him. Bigger picture, I can't overlook that. Even early in the 2023 season, I thought Lamar looked better as a passer than his 2019 MVP season. Rossi beat me to the punch about how insane our offense looked at times last season. I don't want Todd to leave.

 

[Truth]

I'm still not hurt on the Clowney thing, but I understand I'm in the minority. They did not want to take snaps away from Mike Green and felt he'd have been the one most impacted by another veteran signing.

With the benefit of hindsight, I think you'd now take him because neither Green nor Oweh have done much worthwhile to this point. But at the time, they thought they had a strong top 4. Didn't work out that way unfortunately.

It's early in the season, but Clowney has done very little as a pass rusher in Dallas. Za'Darius Smith would've been a great get, but at this point, it looks like he wouldn't return on a personal level after we let him walk from his rookie contract.

 

[rossihunter2]

This to me seems like the year of aggression. The BPA mantra makes sense but sometimes when you sit there and take what you get, you end up too deep at some positions year over year and too weak at others. If there's an opportunity to address the trenches and you're a few picks away and are feeling antsy about getting the guy, go fucking get him and don't leave it to chance. I've heard far too many guys we've missed on because we've been patient. That's what I think needs to change the most - we can identify talent, now go get the talent that fills on obvious hole instead of taking the leftovers.

i think also there was a clear shift in how they grade WRs according to the evolution of the NFL and that's how we ended up drafting 3 WRs in the first round in 5 draft classes after having only drafted 1 in the previous 13 draft classes

feels like we might need a recalibration in terms of what qualities (and how highly) we're grading them at safety for example

 

[gtalk12]

It's early in the season, but Clowney has done very little as a pass rusher in Dallas. Za'Darius Smith would've been a great get, but at this point, it looks like he wouldn't return on a personal level after we let him walk from his rookie contract.

IMO we let too many guys walk on that defense over the years.

 

[rossihunter2]

There's plenty of Todd being completely clueless. Across seasons. And primarily in the playoffs. I just hard disagree. Lamar covers up for so much of his BS it's ridiculous. And when there's just any amount of pressure being applied by the defense, Todd has nothing to put Lamar in a good spot. He just let's us lose

i just don't agree

you can also pick out bad plays for any coordinator where they look "clueless" - i think monken generally has designed a really good offence and generally has called good games