Ellicottraven
Ravens Ring of Honor
Now we're just being silly!
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Shutouts
- Thread starter JoeyFlex5
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DeVito52
Ravens Ring of Honor
Funny, you’re leaving out one tid bit of information that blows up your entire argument. Matt Cassel made the pro bowl with the Chiefs in 2010. Hmm. But he was only good that one year right?
Matt Ryan had just Julio Jones? Lol okay. Peyton didn’t have Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark and many others great weapons through the years? So Peyton makes his guys look great but Brady doesn’t? Welker was nothing before Tom Brady. He makes guys like Hogan look incredible. The fact that you can say Brady isn’t great just because his team is decent without him is hilarious. Sure, it means he may not deserve mvp every year. But that’s it.
And no one is arguing with you that the Patriots don’t have the best coaching staff in the NFL. They do.
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Oh you're right; that one Pro Bowl in a 14 year career just killed my argument. That one year that looks like a total anomaly when compared to everything else he did with any team is such an argument killer. You're totally true. By the way, never said that was his only good year and you missed the point if you think that invalidates my argument.
Let me try again. Cassel had not started since high school. In seven years in the pros and college, he threw less than 50 passes, non likely meaningful. He came in as a starter to go 11-5. He was top 10 in passing yards, touchdowns, and rating. Understabd now?
Who else did Ryan have that was a great receiver when he won MVP? Taylor Gabriel? Justin Hardy? Don't even say Mohammed Sanu because we all know damn well no one respected him as a receiver when he was a Bengal and most people thought the Falcons were idiots for signing him to a $7M per year contract. It didn't matter who Manning had. Harrison retires and Peyton Manning just doesn't miss a beat. Didn't matter if it was Austin Collie, Brandon Stokely, or Pierre Garcon replacing Harrison- Manning did not miss a single beat.
Welker was not nothing before Tom Brady and Hogan was actually a pretty good receiver. I hate when people use them as an example. Just because YOU never heard of them doesn't mean that they were nobodies. When Welker became a RFA, the Dolphins put a second round tender on him and the Patriots just cut that all together and offered a second and seventh round pick. If you recall, Boldin was traded for a third and a fourth, if that tells you how well regarded Welker was. And Hogan was a pretty damn good slot receiver stuck in an awful situation up in Buffalo. Again, look at when his statistical breakouts occurred- he got Welker and Moss and from there the Patriots made VERY concerted efforts to get top tier players, such as Gronk and Cooks.
I mean, really, what makes Brady the best quarterback ever? I'm pretty sure Peyton has the most career yards, touchdowns, and completions, all three of which Brees should surpass. Manning as the most wins, but since Brady is playing longer, he should get that one. But one thing Brady will not touch is Manning's TEN All-Pros (Brady has four) and five MVP's (Brady has two). Hell, in one less year of play, Manning has two more Pro Bowls to his name.
This is not the thread for this, though, so I will not reply any further. If you want to continue this, reply in the random thought thread.
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He could atleast call a better game
For me it's been a tough call to evaluate which one would be better if they switched teams. They are both great players and make the players around them better. I miss Manning, but won't miss Brady :-).
The one I'd like to see would be switching Marino and Montana or even put Marino on the Skins due to offensive style. I think Marino would have won a super bowl with both San Fran or the Skins in the 80s and early 90s because both overall teams were better than the fins. Sorry to take this conversation off track.
DeVito52
Ravens Ring of Honor
Yes. it did kill your argument.
Please show me where i said Tom Brady is the single greatest quarterback ever. i didn’t.
that was probably me - and i still believe it
DeVito52
Ravens Ring of Honor
I’d probably take Rodgers over both too, his physical traits are incredible. But there’s no arguing the other two aren’t among the greatest. And i don’t even like either of them.
allblackraven
Hall of Famer
Nah, played most of his career with irregular footballs.
I have always said it is extremely difficult to compare qbs from a different era and I stand by that. It’s hard enough to compare Brady vs Manning.
You don't understand my argument in the slightest bit if you believe that, so I'm going to stop talking to you.
I don't believe it.
For me, I look at it this way. If we move Peyton Manning to the Browns, can they be SB contenders? Yes. If we move Aaron Rodgers to the Browns, can they be SB contenders? Yes. If we move Tom Brady to the Browns, can they be SB contenders? Eh, not so sure on that.
K-Dog
MVP
One player does not make nor break a team. That said, I think any scenario you quoted would be a massive and noticeable improvement. Including Princess Bardy.
Totally not the thread for this, but if it becomes an issue, I'll just merge posts, but here's a fun fact about Peyton Manning and Tom Brady...
For his career, Tom Brady has played with a top 10 defense EIGHTY (80%) percent of the time with an average ranking of eighth overall. His win rate with a top 10 defense? 81%. The win rate with a defense ranked outside the top 10? 67%.
Tom Brady's career wins with a defense ranked outside the top 16 in scoring- 20 total, just one in the playoffs out of 25 wins. For only 7% of his games has Brady played with a defense NOT ranked in the top 16 in terms of PPG prior to this season. I imagine that percentage is even lower now.
Peyton Manning, on the other hand? 35% (102) of his games were with a defense ranked outside the top 10 in PPG. It was a much higher percentage than that prior to Denver.
For his career, Tom Brady has played with a top 10 defense EIGHTY (80%) percent of the time with an average ranking of eighth overall. His win rate with a top 10 defense? 81%. The win rate with a defense ranked outside the top 10? 67%.
Tom Brady's career wins with a defense ranked outside the top 16 in scoring- 20 total, just one in the playoffs out of 25 wins. For only 7% of his games has Brady played with a defense NOT ranked in the top 16 in terms of PPG prior to this season. I imagine that percentage is even lower now.
Peyton Manning, on the other hand? 35% (102) of his games were with a defense ranked outside the top 10 in PPG. It was a much higher percentage than that prior to Denver.
One player can make or break a team if it's a good enough quarterback. I truly believe that.
Look at the stat I just posted above, though. Brady has been given one of the best situations for a quarterback possibly ever.
id say 100% yes because of how much tom brady designs his offence - he throws his receivers open, is a better player than any ive ever seen presnap and creating the matchups he wants, the precision he demands from his receivers on timing routes means that repeatedly scrubs with a hint of an ability to make a sharp cut become usable good receivers on the pats and i dont see how that would be different elsewhere - you seem to be marking him down because of the success of the scheme in new england - well that scheme only exists because of brady making more complex reads than any qb in football - to suggest brady is a product of the offensive scheme in new england is to neglect the importance of presnap reads and adjustments, coverage manipulation, hot reads, run-block re-alignment - Brady comes to every play with 2 plays and every route is an option route, meaning that the WR and QB must see the exact same thing (especially when Brady audibles)
im also not sure the matt cassel stuff is really valid criticism tbh because matt cassel in that vein of form scored 29 less tds on an easier schedule than brady did the year previous, had 5 less wins etc. - this is the same matt cassel who went to KC and took them to the playoffs (which he didnt do with new england)
jimmy g has played well in a small sample size but we dont actually know that jimmy g isnt a good qb...
it's also worth pointing out that before brady, bellichek had 5/6 losing seasons (including with drew bledsoe) before brady arrived and brady instantly changed the fortunes of that team overnight - they went from 5-13 to 17-3 almost instantly
id be less sure peyton manning could do it than brady - when has peyton proved he can elevate bad talent - he's always had great playmakers around him when his offences were working and he won that second superbowl when he was carried by his defence - in a more technical sense, peyton was more demonstrative about adjusting at the LoS presnap but actually did less than brady... No “system”, and certainly no coach, can teach you how to deconstruct defenses, decipher complex coverages, spot out blitzes and make the right hot-read throw, and then CHANGE the offensive line protection to pick up the blitz, make offensive line run blocking adjustments (different than pass blocking adjustments) which, Dan Koppen pointed out, Peyton Manning doesn’t do (Centers Saturday and Koppen under Manning have always handled the offensive line blocking adjustments, while Brady has always done so in NE not the Center)
i cant stand the pats and brady when we play but i genuinely do think its wilful hatred of them to denigrate brady just because bellichek is a good coach and i think it undersells him as in my view the goat
oh i agree with that - there are only 2/3 teams in the league for whom a qb injury/suspension doesnt sink their season
There isn't actually a single quarterback in the NFL who tells their offensive line how to block and sets protections. They identify the Mike and make sure everyone is one the same page, but he's not telling them who to block.
I think Wade Phillips actually said it best in regards to the difference between Brady and Manning pre-snap. Brady is really great at reacting to what the defense gives him. Manning is really great at seeing what the defense wants to do based on how it sees the offense align, then just throws it out the window for an entirely new play that the defense isn't prepared for.
Sure, Brady runs a system predicated mostly on option routes and on timing, but the EP system is considered one of the NFL's most quarterback-wide receiver friendly. Let's not act like it's the most difficult and intricate system in the NFL. Sure, it requires really good timing and accuracy, but it puts players who can execute it in a way better position than the Air Coryell system, for example.
I think you forget BB only coached one season in NE without TB and BB pretty well said it would be a rebuild in 2000 when he first took over. He said it best when he said, "We cannot win with 40 good players when the opponent has 53." He basically said he was going to deconstruct the team and build them back up. They won those early years thanks to defense, not TB.
Of course Cassel didn't play as well as Brady. Brady was a starter for six years prior to 2007 and Cassel hadn't started a single game since 2001 and didn't throw a single meaningful pass (less than 50 total) before 2008. Like, why are we surprised that he didn't do as well? He still finished top 10 in YPG, yards, passer rating, and touchdowns. I think he was pretty low on INT's, too.
So, let me re-iterate. Cassel doesn't start for 7 years, but leads an NFL team to 11 wins and has top 10 stats. Let that sink in. And the Patriots not making the playoffs was flukey. It was one of those week 17 things where it was like, "For the Patriots not to make the playoffs, w, x, y, and z need to happen," and all of those things did happen. Kinda similar to how the Ravens made it in 2009, I believe. But they were the second team since 1975 to NOT make the playoffs at 11 wins. In nearly 35 years, they were the second team. That should tell you something.
Manning had Wayne and Harrison, sure, but when Harrison left, it was a rotational cast of players behind Wayne and Manning never faltered or played any worse. Like, losing one of the top 10 receivers in NFL history and Manning's play doesn't drop off. That's pretty remarkable.
The only thing that knocks him down in the eyes of anyone is the playoff success, or lack of success, rather. If Manning doesn't lose a SB and has more playoff success, there's no discussion on who the best ever is.
Norv Turner: If you're going to create a quarterback in a lab, this is your guy. He was in complete control of what they did. The numbers are incredible. If Peyton Manning had New England's defenses, he would be at the top of this list and he would be 5-2 or 6-1 in Super Bowls. People were critical of Peyton for the playoff losses -- the interception against New Orleans or whatever -- but his teams were not good enough on defense.
Tony Dungy: I don't think Peyton gets enough credit for his physical toughness -- play after play, year after year. People also would talk about Peyton having all these weapons, but he was responsible for a lot of that, especially when the team was so good and not picking high in the draft.
Wade Phillips: Peyton learned the right way. When he first came into the league, he threw a lot of interceptions, but he didn't get sacked. He learned to get rid of the football. Then as he went along, he learned not to throw the interceptions. That is what made him great. And then through his preparation, he turned it into an audible game. You started saying, "OK, we have to wait 'til the last 10 seconds to show what we're going to do." I think Brady is great at just reacting off it. Peyton was great at reading it and changing the play, that kind of thing.
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I believe Rossi is referring to both the one year prior to Brady and his time in Cleveland.